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Breaking and Entering
Do we really need it?

This is an open letter to gauge feedback on the topic of Breaking and Entering being added to Sindome. I do not want this feature. And I make arguments here against it. However, some do, and I want to honestly gauge the preferences of the players, and if they want this feature in game.

I don't think we need Breaking and Entering. Personally, I don't want to play the game all week, make money to pay my rent, and then go to sleep, waking up to find my cube/apartment/membership pad/locker has been robbed while I was asleep by some baka with a lockpick set that hit up all the apartments/lockers/cubes on my floor.

One of the arguments for B&E is that we need to keep the moo skinny and avoid bloat when people have hoards of items sitting in their apartments. I think that is a reasonable goal, avoiding bloat, but I think the methods we have for it (nanny programs that scan for hoards and alert the staff so they can prod the players into selling) handle that plenty fine.

Also, we have the autopruner which runs weekly, shaving tons of bloat, and there are plenty of places we could add integrations for this, making it prune even more off. We have the clothing voter system so recycled custom clothing CAN be saved, but also, CAN be deleted. Previously, it was always saved.

We have the recycling chutes which offer incentive to recycle things and not hoard them. We have shops and the market and many places you can sell goods.

In the end, I don't think we need B&E to solve this problem.

I also don't think lockers should be break-into-able. My reason behind this is simply that as soon as we spent time coding that, people would just stop using lockers. People that can afford to have a hoard, can afford a cube or apartment or vehicle, or all of the above to 'spread' their hoard around in. Having B&E for lockers just means people stop using lockers.

Also, let's consider apartments. People have lives, in real life. They have work, and play, and family. The last thing I want when I am playing a game is to sign in and have my stuff stolen or my character moved against his will, or turned in to the WJF in some cases, or kidnapped or whatever. All while I wasn't around and didn't get any RP out of it. That doesn't create RP for me that I want to engage with.

B&E is the ultimate PvE. You use your 'skills' to hack a 'door' or 'locker' or 'whatever'. And the other player(s) involved doesn't even have to be there and may never be aware.

You can make an argument that waking up and being robbed could 'create' rp for you, but is that the RP you really want? Fruitlessly trying to track down who broke into your apartment and robbed you while your character was sleeping (and didn't wake up to defend themselves in the same way you might if it happened IRL)?

And then you track them down, and surprise, it's a cartel, or faction or oldbie you can't contend with because, well, the only way to balance a B&E system is to make it take loads of skill and people with that kind of skill, or the money to buy a skillsoft are probably already established players in the game who have lots of UE.

So you do manage to track them down only to realize... there is fuck all you can do about it because if you attack them, or B&E them back (assuming you have the skills and still have the money to buy whatever tools are required) they'll just perm you.

- Does that seem fun?

- Is anyone excited about the potential to lose all your stuff while you aren't signed in? - - Does this add value to the game?

- Is anyone going to find this a fun RP avenue?

Player hoards are NOT a problem right now. The MOO is a healthy size. And there are plenty of ways we can keep it healthy that don't involve dramatically changing the landscape of the game in a way, honestly, I don't think any players are excited about. I would even posit that we could just randomly recycle one item from any room with > 50 items in it every day, and that would be preferable to B&E.

Yes, there would be counter measures to help prevent B&E, but those won't be perfect. It will still be YOUR skill versus the THIEVES skill. And the protection products YOU buy versus the tools the THIEVES buy. There will either be a BE ALL END ALL protection that protects 100% of the time, or, there will always be a BE ALL END ALL thief, who can break into any apartment given the right skill.

Again, this isn't PvP. It's PvE. With both players preparing their 'environment', one to protect them and their gear when they are asleep or out, and one to break in and steal that gear at the time that is going to offer the biggest chance for success: when the victim isn't online (or the victim has just been murdered, so, yeah, prepare for people to kill you just so you can't stop them breaking into your place?)

The sheer amount of code this would take would be much better suited put toward Grid 3.0, or a slew of other features players are craving and asking for and excited about.

You might make the argument that the original founders of Sindome, intended for the game to have B&E, and from everything I have heard and know, that is true. However, this is a bit of a circular argument.

- The original founders wanted us to have an -in game grid- but we made it on the web with Grid 2.0.

- The original founders wanted us to have The Matrix, but we made the decision to focus efforts on Grid 3.0 instead.

- The original founders wanted the WJF to patrol Red, but that is done by TERRA now because it is more themely

- The original founders wanted a stock market that players could directly profit off of but we found that to be game breaking and thus we have CorpShare

- The original founders wanted the game to run on a single machine, with a MudClient. or telnet. Now we run on a suite of machines and we have a webclient.

The original founders wanted Sindome to be and do a lot of things that don't make sense with 20+ years of development in the rear view. It is wonderful to try to keep to their overall vision, but they aren't here, and we are. We need to make decisions for what is going to be best for the game, now.

If i'm reading the room wrong, I'd love feedback. If you agree, I'd like to hear that too.

I think if we added B&E without some major drastic changes, like armor being cheap s fuck or something, or removed altogether, I would have no interest in playing Sindome anymore. It's not fun to log off and wake up to months and months of work taken by someone who is willing to stay up later than you/on holidays/happens to be in a different timezone. This has happened to me IG before years ago, it's not a fun experience, it almost made me quit on the spot even as a staffer, and this in the end is a game and supposed to be enjoyable. It's cool in theory, I have never heard any way this could be made fun in practice and am complete against it. I'd be done with playing if I couldn't have basic security when I logged out.
And yet no one vanishes from the game when they log out and you can sleep with roommates who could rob the shit out of you and no one cares? Like, ghost someone after robbing the whole place you lived at?

Also, explain how death and all the complaints we get about the unfairness in the lack of RP given to the victim does not in anyway have analogs to B & E RP. It's fun to watch people twist that in knots.

"All the complaints"

We get a person every now and then xhelping saying they don't think their death was fair-- but we as a community are very good about appreciating dying. Just because of the 20+ years of the game you've heard a ton of complaints about dying does not justify wanting to do something that will cause much more, and also legitimate complaints. That is a logical fallacy.

I wouldn't mind BnE being 'coded' in some fashion, you can already kind of do this with stealth on most locations. This would just make it less of a cat and mouse thing and more of a camping thing, I guess.

As a countermeasure you could make 'un-crackable' safety deposit lockers (items of all sizes but limited storing space) at the bank for 1k or 2k a week. This way people keep their expensive stuff at the expensive safe place at limited capacity and everywhere else is fair game for BnE.

No, there would be no uncrackable lockers or safes.
I like how things are now. It seems unrealistic for my character to not wake up and be allowed to respond - call a Judge or Terra or my buddies via SIC. I do think you should continue to be punished for not closing your door. Some locations should be more prone to you being followed without your knowing. But then that's balanced with the opportunity to upgrade the door. That creates RP. Some max UE friendo stealing everything that defines my character in a minute with no possible way of retribution seems like a bummer.

If residents were able to contribute toward paying a security group to constantly watch them, maybe. But sitting in a control room idly watching monitors isn't really rewarding rp.

I would like Breaking and Entering only with GM intervention if it's deemed there is a solid plot reason that will create RP rather than just deleting it by taking away someone's resources to RP themselves. I imagine being totally robbed would be frustrating for not only non-combat characters who rely on their connections and ability to fund and rp those connections as well as combat characters who rely heavily on their gear.

Sorry to double post but - if this is absolutely something being added, I would be very upset if there was no email notification at the least that someone was fucking up my char's life. Because as Slither said, we do have lives and need sleep ourselves.

Even still, this would create a huge imbalance for characters, I think.

If I had to fret about going off and doing real life things because someone might the chance to break in and clear me out, I simply wouldn't play.

I know not all competition allows agency in this game, but simply being screwed over with no means of protecting yourself because you were OOC isn't something I'm at all interested in. As it stands, similar plots require both parties to be online so at the very least, you have a chance to RP what might be a zero chance thing.

It's a major Catch-22. If you required people to xhelp, not everyone knows when someone's awake.

The system, as is, does allow a variety of vulnerability that do require the victim to be awake for at least a portion, and nearly all of them require RP.

I'm firmly against B&E as a coded skill.

Slither touches on this and so does Blinder, but people don't want to have to worry about the game when they're logged off. Sindome has a reputation among its critics and its active playerbase as a game that takes a lot of emotional energy and overall energy investment. And in large part that's true. People get invested. People have a severe fear of missing out.

Adding breaking and entering is going to make that skyrocket. People will try to stuff their belongings in the most secure place possible. One of the complaints about corporate play is it feels like a lot of corporate citizens don't ever really leave their apartment to put themselves at risk for conflict. Coding in B&E is going to make people across all sectors want to stay in their apartments.

Johnny, with all due respect, your counterargument is not one that aligns. Yes, people complain about being killed from time to time - but they're in game, they're not being killed while offline. Yes, people can get robbed by their roommates. But that's an active decision on the character's part to have roommates. It gives them a basepoint of where to start if they wake up and all their belongings are gone. People can get robbed if they leave their doors open - again an active decision from being inattentive.

When this conversation started up in earnest again about a year and a half ago, people brought up these points to you. How it's important that if their homes are getting robbed that it's a result of something they didn't do (like didn't close the door), making poor choices of friends through RP (roommate theft), someone else tricking them through RP to get their code or gain trust to access their apartment. Or someone getting past them with skills already implemented. All of these and reasons like them are based in one truth: it's the result of actions they did or didn't take while they were actively playing their characters and able to respond. Not when they were logged off the game and a skillcheck versus a coded security system that they may or may not be able to even afford.

Sindome can be and often is a stressful and intense environment. People don't want to worry about the game when they're logged off - it's a game, afterall. This is one of the reasons people are so uncomfortable with car theft and there's a countermeasure to protect your vehicles. In the past in these conversations, Johnny has come with a multitude of suggestions: create a game app that people could check while offline to see if their character's door was closed. Make it so our unconscious characters begin to fight people breaking into their homes if we were offline. Make it so B&E could only happen if someone of the residence was online, but IIRC they didn't need to be in the residence. Just one person attached to it online. (this one I could be remembering wrong).

But in all of these countermeasure suggestions it either involves people worrying about Sindome characters when they're offline and should be enjoying other things in life or creating a scenario where people mostly live alone and/or stay firmly planted in their apartments.

In my opinion B&E already exists - the majority of it through roleplay and plotting. I don't see how coding breaking and entering adds any positive to the game. If bloat is a true concern, as Slither wrote there are functions in the game to deal with pruning and in extreme cases GMs can step in and run a scenario where some hoarded stuff is cleared up.

I know I've wrote it a lot but I cannot stress it enough: While intense, Sindome is ultimately a game. Don't make it so people have to worry about an already heavy game while offline.

I think B&E is great conceptually but the reality is not so much.

In my personal experience, when breaking into someone's apartment whether to kill them or rob them blind - the result is usually one of a few things.

1) They straight up quit playing entirely. No joke. This has happened to me multiple times.

2) They return the exact favor resulting in a cold war of break-ins that yield no RP.

3) They flee their current apartment/sector of occupation.

4) Extensive emotional bleed...

But Reefer, what is the consequence for fucking up at B&E right now? Death. Usually death.

How do we and should we create a better B&E experience?

I think exploring options of forcing someone LOGGED IN out of their residence could be rewarding. Whether that's siphoning pools of ethanol underneath someone's door and threatening to ignite it, overloading their buildings systems so the sprinkler system starts to flood, etc... I do not know.

However, I think it's definitely a better option to explore than more while you were logged out I stole all your shit RP.

Ultimately, I think any implementation should focus on creating a LOGGED IN experience and weighing one PC's assets against another. i.e. If I bring my cowboy, explosives expert, and solo to the party then they play kong drugs on your front door while you're logged in and you can't get similar backup in x amount of time - maybe that's on you?

I'm hesitant to think the player base will embrace this in any way that isn't a toxic abusive nightmare though which spirals into endless xhelps and Staff mitigation.

Nooo, please no.

I get the idea here, but this game is already dicey and stressful enough. Having a way to relax behind a closed door (and log out and chill!) is in my opinion necessary. SD can already be challenging to balance with RL stuff (sometimes) and I think this would teeter things into an unhealthy territory. Also I think this would just be wrecking-balled in after hours in a way that isn't fun or engaging. I'm seconding the "hunt down who stole all your shit" as being unfun RP. And if you were logged off when it happened, what clues are you going to have anyway?

If cracking was going to do something like this, I'd recommend that certain locations be created that have noteable perks that can be cracked into. Say, some kind of bases with clear advantages that a group can occupy. The resources in the bases (sic amps, etc.) can be bolted down, and there can be a push-pull about occupation. (sort of king of the hill, kind of).

I think B&E situations for player pads are only warranted in heavy plot situations where like, someone is holed up and talking shit on Snakes in a Snake turf'd apartment. In that situation they could get their door cracked down. But this should be rare and only in egregious cases where the player is abusing the OOC door security.

I feel like if this was implemented widely people would just be cracking every door at 2:00 a.m. and looting all the sleepers. Regardless of who even lives there. If it was IRL you'd be waking these people up and they'd be killing you. I know this is a game and isn't the same as IRL, but it just doesn't seem engaging, realistic, or fun. It would honestly push me to quit as well.

Not everyone has the same amount of play time and this seems like it would be unnecessarily punishing for those who can't be logged in all the time.

I agree a lot with Reefer's sentiments.

I also agree with Johnny's.

We have a lot of instances already where you can absolutely lose everything while logged off or logged on.

I also see the potential for meta as an issue, think the meta around dips magnified by 30,000.

You're an impressively good secure tech, obviously you're the ONLY one who could have broken into my pad. VAT VAT VAT.

That said, floored's post came in as I posted mine...

I like the idea of sequential bases within the mix, that you could have factions play king of the hill over. Maybe, as examples of things you might find within, things like illusive cam networks, SICamped areas, sicdead areas, inbuilt semi-powerful edges that can be warred over and make having a secure tech a necessity to take advantage of this. Possibly have these bases protected by layers of security that relock each day/week/hour/minute based on the power of the edge contained within.

A sicdead area might relock every week, requiring a competent secure tech to open. But a sic amp area might relock daily, and something with a cam network, might relock every hour. Something more unique or powerful might relock the moment the door is closed and close the door after opening.

This also opens up the possiblity for player built factions/cliques to play push pull with access to these resources as well. If they are informed of them.

This would also give secure techs some collaborative and useful stuff to war over.

Another option, which would be gameplay fiat, which is to allow breaking and entry, but only for things other than apartments.

Backrooms in businesses, Storage rooms in shops, other places best left unmentioned but which have very TANGIBLE value to have access too.

I would be down to playtest B&E for a while, see how it feels.
I have a lot to say about this, since I have played a character that did this a fair amount. The first of which is, B&E already exists in the game. Not as a mechanical skill, but it might as well be, because when executed perfectly, there is absolutely nothing the victim can do to stop you. There is ONE thing you can do in certain apartments if you want to be really powergame-y but from what I've seen, it's not possible in quite a few of them.

That being said, is B&E fun, in it's current state? Hell no. I hated it, it involved very little RP and there was almost nothing I could do to make it fun for the victim. But most of all, it was extremely boring due to how it works. At this point, I would actively discourage any player from making this a character core or something they pursue because you won't have fun even when things go right.

Do I want B&E in the game? Hell yes. For a million different reasons. I will try and list some of them that come to mind.

-Elimination of safety bubbles. This is a huge complaint people have had since forever. Cars are safety bubbles. Pads are safety bubbles. A lot of public places are more or less safety bubbles. Your house should be safe, not unbreakable. More on that later.

-More RP and flash spent. Why do banks exist IRL? Because it would be really dumb to keep all your savings at home, unless you own a vault. Keep your money in the bank, insure your goods/house, buy security systems and protection. More on this later.

-A good way to even the field. As it stands, the only way a weaker player beats a stronger player in any fashion is social intrigue. Problem is, not everyone wants to, or has characters that are good at this. Planning a heist on someone's house would be a lot more feasible (and interesting) than paying a super solo to kill them.

-More judge/PI/forensic RP. The system would have to be expanded somewhat, but this would be fantastic. A lot of systems would have to be tweaked in fact, but nobody is under the illusion that this would be a small change.

-More faction RP. Most apartments are owned/protected by a faction. This rarely comes into play. Gangs, for example, I think a lot more people would be happy to be chummy with gangers and pay tolls if they actually protected their turf. (Yes, yes, they KIND of do, but trust me, they don't, regarding apartments).

I find it funny that in a game with permadeath, frequent killing and robbing, torture, mind-altering devices, and a ton of really unfair mechanics, people somehow think getting robbed is too much. I would MUCH rather be robbed than have my character killed repeatedly.

A few notes.

Different security measures would have to be added, obviously. Things like different locks, security systems (maybe even traps). I don't agree with Slither's take that PVE preparation isn't PVP. It absolutely is, and it exists in all forms of current PVP. Fighting someone in a SIC deadspot is PVE preparation. Using certain combat items is PVE preparation. Even just plain old drugs are.

If you live in an absolute shithole in the middle of Red, should you feel safe? Why? Being careful of whom you give your address to, installing security, moving to better places, setting up a deal with a faction... All these seem infinitely more interesting and like more RP than just heading home and logging off because you know you're 100% safe. This, funnily enough, would also create more RP topside, since discrete break-ins are a lot more feasible than combat.

I understand the point that nobody likes logging in and just finding their stuff gone, but no one likes getting murdered, either. Or any of the other awful stuff that happens every day in Sindome (a lot of which comes with as little as RP as current B&E does) The question of it is whether or not it brings good RP, and I think, a properly developed system would. It's not as if the entire dome would suddenly all shift into having the likely extremely specialized tools and skills and start robbing each other blind. People are forgetting that if you get caught, you are the highest of pariahs. Nobody likes a dip, people like burglars even less.

I dunno. I could go on, but I always though pads being as secure as they are go completely against the idea of Red sector as a whole to an almost comical level. I can talk shit to the baddest guy in the city, long as I'm comfy in my little apartment, because apparently the toughest guy in the city can't get through a shitty mix door in some backalley cube hotel.

Let players decide how much they care about their stuff. Deposit boxes in banks, storage containers, vaults, keeping things in your car, these are all options and things that could be worked in. I just think pads being impenetrable goes against everything else in the game.

And after re-reading the thread, the overwhelming response seems to be 'No, it's stressful, I don't want people having an OOC advantage, I don't want months of work to go to waste'.

My question is, how is that literally any different than than a max UE character deciding 'fuck you' and then proceeding to kill you, or your friends, or your business, or whatever until you do what they want?

You can fight back? Pfft. We all know that's not true, and I've seen this happen to plenty of people, including myself. And a lot of times, people perm out because of it. But hey, at least you can log out and keep your wardrobe stocked, right?

Come on.

I can't do anything about that, but if I wanted my house to not be broken into, I could do a million things.

Absolutely yes there should be a B&E mechanic.

Should you be able to do it when there's no one able to react? Absolutely not.

The discussions we've had about this previously included a car-electronics type security feature for doors. You could upgrade the door security to higher end models, and when they are tampered with, they will scream on SIC that they're being messed with.

If even that isn't enough, a simple check to see if there's anyone logged in inside the apartment would be a REALLY GOOD mechanic. This also makes B&E's more possible against characters that tend to hang out in their apartments, as someone who isn't home, will be codedly immune to the B&E.

There's solutions to every problem someone has with B&E, and at the end of the day, it forces people out into the world by implementing them.

I think the crux of the anti-b&b argument is that players playing this game need a little bit of breathing room if they're to make progress and have fun. The streets are brutal, and making it home with enough to pile up for a tool belt, or weapon, or armor, is already hard for some players, especially new ones.

"I find it funny that in a game with permadeath, frequent killing and robbing, torture, mind-altering devices, and a ton of really unfair mechanics, people somehow think getting robbed is too much. I would MUCH rather be robbed than have my character killed repeatedly."

The thing is, it wouldn't be an either/or kind of thing. How would being robbed of everything, then killed repeatedly be? Even less fun. And there wouldn't be a lot of counterplay if you're already losing the murder-fights. That solo is now in your house with his tech buddy. SD can pile on a lot for people. Removing the one safe zone people have (seems to me) would make that "scrimp and save to take a risk" cycle a lot more difficult. Also, I'd wager that a majority of players would rather get blasted many times than have everything they've saved whoosh out of existence.

"My question is, how is that literally any different than than a max UE character deciding 'fuck you' and then proceeding to kill you, or your friends, or your business, or whatever until you do what they want?"

The difference is that you can try and avoid these people with disguises, or hiding, or going to other places. Or hiring muscle to assist. They have to find you when you're playing, or lure you to a spot. You make the choice of going there. If b&e was an option, as soon as someone knew where you lived (or if someone with the abilities chose your apartment one night randomly) and you happened to be logged off, all your stuff is gone. Even worse, now they can do BOTH. Just take all your shit at will and continually kill you.

"It's not as if the entire dome would suddenly all shift into having the likely extremely specialized tools and skills and start robbing each other blind. People are forgetting that if you get caught, you are the highest of pariahs. Nobody likes a dip, people like burglars even less."

You can bet your ass that the people at the top of the pile have the chy to find these tools, and the leverage to get people to use them. Who cares if you're a pariah if you can just take everyone's shit while they're asleep? Or just bash your way in? I see people dismayed about non-combat characters getting the hose. They'd be even more screwed with this change.

"But hey, at least you can log out and keep your wardrobe stocked, right?"

People keep plenty in their pads that aren't clothes. Chy they scrimp, data they're collating, armor and drugs. Goods and items they're using to facilitate plots and rp. It's a natural place to stockpile before you go to the bank or do that high risk job. If you spend a few weeks saving up and stockpiling shit for a heist or plot, only to have it yoinked while you're asleep...that sucks.

I get that people shouldn't be sitting in cubes in a known spot, antagonizing people who are inches away (in this case, maybe staff can throw a think like "I need to shut up or make my stand...or maybe they'll break in my door"). This has to be few and far between though.

It is handwavy that apartments are safe. But it is a game. SD is already difficult. Because it is difficult, does that mean we should continue to make it harder and harder? What's wrong with a bit of breathing room for people, especially when they're logged out and trying to live IRL? Players of other muds who are used to booping out of existence at log-out already feel like getting to a "safe place" to log out is a lot. Earning money for a pad takes time, especially for newbies. Sure, getting killed sucks, but you can head home, re-gear (hopefully) or count your remaining one kay try and get your head on straight.

I get the motive: it's themely, and would create a lot of action. Just seems like it's taking things too far to me. If people are squatting and talking shit that's a problem. But the guy working a 9-5 irl and derping his way through the game is going to be bummed as fuck about this when his whole weekly/monthly/xly nut is gone. At least with a fight you have to be found and attacked while you're playing. I think this would be bad for a lot of players oocly and the mud would suffer as a result. Players are allowed OOC/IC vacations, and can play when they want. This just feels like too much.

I think you're running under the assumption that in this new system, breaking into somewhere would as easy as entering a command and opening the door. I did say that the only way this would work is if it would be suitably difficult and with plenty of possible defense measures being implemented.

>The solo can now be in your house AND kill you.

My point is that you can do it to him as well. You can't kill him, but you could hire a techie to break in. You could argue he can do it to you, too, but at least there's an even ground between a massive UE disparity, unlike with combat.

>You can hide, disguise or go other places. They have to find you to kill you, and to rob you, it can even happen randomly.

That sounds a lot like more or less not playing the game. Also won't stop anyone, they'll just move on to friends, lay traps, ruin you socially, etc etc. As before, this is also running under the assumption that they know where you live. They ALSO have to find out where you live to rob you, and get through a ton (hopefully) of defenses, unlike killing you, which they can just do more or less at will, or, as I said kill those around you if you decide to not play the game. I have never ever seen someone seriously targeted by someone stronger ever make it out by 'hiding'. It's not hard to find people, and for those dedicated? It's a breeze.

>Who cares if you're a pariah if you can take all their shit while they sleep

I dunno about your perspective, but whenever someone is really hated, from what I've seen, by a decent number of people, they get what's coming to them and either adapt/stop, or perm out. Again. Robbing people wouldn't be just 'okay i have x and y stats and a toolbelt i can now just open every door in the game.' It's not a skeleton key, just like even being max UE doesn't suddenly mean you can walk into a corp and kill an exec without any planning or repercussions.

>people stack all sorts of stuff at home, not just clothes

I addressed this. Hide stuff, more storage options, cars, hell, move stuff around. If you have 100k worth of value in your house, spend it. Use it on people, move those plots along. This is my least favorite argument, because the whole point is to GIVE people access to those plot items you're holding, to CREATE more plot.

Yeah, I have this big secret list of hot drops I use for my drug ring, too bad it's completely secure at all times so it might as well not exist.

It is handwavy, and I do get that SD is a game and needs some handwaving. But I don't agree that this is an area where it is needed. Dying sucks, not because you lose the 5k clone, but because you have an enemy. They can kill you again. They can turn people against you. They make you paranoid. Whatever I have at my place is just... Stuff. I honestly feel like people just like the fact that it's a permanent safety bubble, and that's fine, that's an opinion, but...

You want your home to be safe? Buy a nice home. Be a corporate citizen. Invest heavily into it. Make connections. A combination of the above. All of these things generate RP, action and enforce theme. Why should it be the same for everyone when nothing else is?

I think B&E code that required the leaseholder of the apartment to be logged in could possibly be okay. That prevents the 'I wake up and my shit is gone' problem -- it turns instead into either 'my shit got taken when I was out' or 'terrifying home invasion robbery', which are mildly better alternatives.

That said, I'm kind of with Slither. Does the game need more of that stress? In terms of 'theme/stress balance', wouldn't it be better to focus on other things?

How do you plan to counter meta-abuse of people face-checking doors to see if their occupants are online and profiling to narrow down who owns what apartment when cross-referenced with SIC?

This sounds like a lot of work for admin, in my opinion. The return feels very low, there are better game features to work on.

Everything else I care to say has already been said.

The overall consensus seems like few people want an additional way to all their shit jacked but the elephant in the room is that B&E is the staple of Secure_Tech. My proposal would be to make the implementation of B&E not resemble ye olde fashioned kick in the front door your shit is my shit.

Instead, I suggest making it entirely focused on paydata, rigging, checks off bingo card forensics, and other applicable skills.

How do we do this?

Add HVAC ducts to all buildings utilizing market code. Depending on the building, apartment, and other factors there will be security implementations that can kill a motherbaka. The goal would be for a skilled secure_tech to navigate through this death maze. Once they find air duct, panel, or what have you to access an apartment they would be able to slide various devices into the apartment i.e. small drones, lipstick cameras, bugs, progia data scrapers, modded critter-dex that scans your loot-pile, etc.

The tech a skilled secure_tech would introduce would best be pair with a friend or cross-skill collaboration such as a rigger from afar.

This way rather than focusing on the typical boring gameplay of making a bakas gear your gear - we expand the paydata game and skillsets in a very themely way.

P.S. What's that smell coming the air duct in the hallway?

short answer: no

long answer: nononononononono

geting your pad robbed at the moment (even if its the players fault for not locking up, etc) is already annoying and demotivating enough, especially for people who dont have the time to spend extended periods of time on sd daily - this would just make it even easier for the rich to get richer by pillaging apartments non stop via working with top techies (we all know this is what would likely happen)

newer players already have to worry about scratching up enough chy for a safe place each week? why in hell should they also have to worry about proper b&e countermeasures? what would they even be able to do in response?

sd is a GAME, it does not need to be any harder or stressful, especially in an area which can interfere with players OOC lives. no other game has me logging in at 2am to make sure my door is locked, and really id rather not make that stress even more acute

i would only ever be fine with a system like this if everything in sd was SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper and didnt require such an amount of time investment, but obviously that is never going to happen

It is the case that the hoarders with the anti theft measures are unlikely to be targeted. Why risk death for 500k when you can risk nothing to take 50k of gear from someone just barely getting established? God forbid someone ever tries to become a fixer for instance -- the "baby fixer" would truly be doomed.
So... on the one hand, I don't like the idea that there is a magical place where someone can be nigh invulnerable, stash their wealth, and leave it there to collect dust with no concern as to whether it might be taken as long as they've taken proper precautions.

On the other hand... like Slither said... I don't have a whole lot of free time to spend on the game compared to a number of our other players. The most active players will always have an advantage of those who play more casually (extraordinary individuals that know how to make the most of their 2 hours of play time excepted). I am definitely concerned that this would just be yet another gap separating those who play less frequently from those who are almost always online.

Furthermore, I'm concerned it will make people even more conflict averse if they don't have the option to occasionally take a break from being targeted or chased around the game. It's already pretty dangerous for a character challenging the status quo and pissing off the established alliances... and I want to see more of that... not less.

Unfortunately there is no easy answer to how implement B&E without breaking the game and throw things off balance.

I'd like to see the skill implemented in more subtle, paydata based ways akin to what Reefer suggested.

I like Reefer's and RSB's ideas, but with one caveat: No actual entering into apartments.

- Navigate a maze of vents using underappreciated skills like Secure Tech sounds great. Especially if fails involve painful death or scarring after landing in a boiler room. Use certain stat checks to limit the archetypes that can get away with this. INT/LCK maybe?

- Lesser fails can be a THUMP THUMP heard around somewhere in the apartment complex to everyone currently in it. This would give enough time to warrant someone to report it and assemble a team unless the would-be thief backs out.

- More prestigious / larger places can have more difficult / larger vent systems to navigate.

- Since you're stealing things from vents and don't want to leave a footprint, fishing minigame / claw minigame. Something like ~3 minutes per item you want to rope out of the place and up into your vent hole, visible to anyone in the room. Yanking the fished item as it's being fished breaks the thief's hook & line. Looks like they'll have to buy/attach a new one to their grappler at like 5,000c a pop or so.

- Optional suggestion: If an apartment doesn't have anyone awake inside it, make its vent inaccessible (handwaved as vents closing to preserve utility costs). This way smaller 1-room newbie places like Westinghaus aren't robbable without someone definitely seeing what's going on. In larger places, you can target someone's closet while they're in the living room, etc. More value to having a camera in your closet!

Here's a theoretical duct map of a 14-pad complex called Thirty Chirps:

While navigating the ducts, a flashlight and binoculars would be very handy to see what's ahead of you. Bedrooms and Closets tend to have more loose items than Living Rooms, so you'll find more hot vent pitfalls guarding them, each threatening a spill into a boiler room and suffering some intense heat damage, or even death if you land right into the furnace.

- Optional: Multiple exits out of the vents at each floor's lobby, so that someone caught in the vents has a slight chance to escape.

- Optional: Randomize what item the fisher catches, in order to prevent grabbing the highest-ticket items and bailing in 10 minutes. Could also make it invisible to the fisher what's in the apartment they're fishing from.

-----------

Avenues this creates RP:

1. Hearing THUMPs in the vents can inspire fear or excitement.

2. Reports on pubSIC will almost immediately gather RP.

3. People fleeing their apartments to meta-prevent their vent from being accessed gets them out of their apartments.

4. Robbing a closet of 200 items would take 10+ hours. Enjoyment abounds for people who love fishing and potential death.

I see a lot of ways this could be made fun for everyone involved, rather than a 5-minute loot-and-go.

This is going to be a hard no from me.

We already have a grace period for disconnects. We have @ooc. But all the help files also state that it is the responsibility of the player to get to somewhere safe if something IRL comes up. Allowing apartments to be broken into would stop this IC/OOC divide that we really do need.

We have seen large numbers of players playing SD due to Covid-19.. the silver lining to 2020 *shudder*. We have a lot of activity... but that is going to change. I have been on-off furlough for the past 12 months now. I am on a new furlough until March. I am on every day for long periods but when I return to work, I will be far less active.

Knowing that whilst I am trying to get back to normality - which is healthy and I hope all are able to return back to their normal lives - I could lose all my progress in a game I enjoy would be disheartening and very well may lead to myself and others starting to give up.

Should Electro-Techs have some extra shady biz for their skills? Yes.

Should careless or too-trusting players be victim to be robbed? Yes.

Should we reduce bloat? Absolutely.

But then, should we allow people to break into coffins?

Should we create more bleed by not letting players DC in their apartment for a few hours?

Should we punish our now international player base for sleeping whilst others are awake?

Should we remove the protection grace period on sleepers on disconnect?

Should we repeal the rules of 'common decency' if someone randomly collapses in a bar to not immediately snap their neck?

Should we push to focus on our SD life over real life?

It opens a can of worms.

Without going into IC details, pretty sure what some people are requesting has and is available through plots. Certain factions -have- broken into apartments before as the 'climax' of a plot if someone decides to do something risky and then barricade themselves in their apartment. These characters who say, kills a few judges and then hide in a cube? It's themely and fair for them to be IC raided in their cube... it's themely and more importantly it's RP.

Being able to raid twenty apartments whilst the players are offline in a single sitting will only benefit the one doing the raiding for mechanical gain to complete strangers.

The best way I can think of it is to compare it to Dungeons and Dragons. Though SD and D&D are not alike, it's the base model for this. Imagine you are in a campaign with several others... something comes up in life and you can't make the next session.... so your DM says your character was robbed and you didn't stop it because -you- were not there. How is that enhancing RP? How is that bringing enjoyment to the other players? How is any of that a positive rather than a negative?

TLDR:

I think Breaking and Entering will only harm RP not enhance it. I would rather see someone with the skillset to do this - get a contract from a faction to break into an apartment as part of a grand plot on a circumstantial basis than this being coded and available to anyone. I can also see B&E simply killing player count. We should welcome all those who join the game AND stick around.. even if they can only play an hour or two a day.

We had over a hundred players last Town Hall.

I want to break that record next Town Hall.. not see it reduced because some people want to get some MOO loot.

Also, people keep talking about Secure Tech being an under appreciated skill. I think this has been done to death is other threads, but it it is one of the "winners" in tech skills, not the losers.
As my last thoughts on this, since people are keen on not even considering this without resorting to some massive hyperbole about a max ue character going on a nightly spree of random apartments...

When was the last time you saw a max UE character going around just killing random people because hey, who can stop them? Me? Never. And if they did, players would naturally group up and take care of it, or the staff would step in.

If we treat every change or addition to the game as if it's going to be massively abused by everyone, that just shows there's 0 trust between anyone playing in this game, and we're right back to the problem of people killing each other in deadzones with shrouds, 0 RP before or after, because that's the efficient and safe way. And worse, we can basically not add or change anything significant because people don't ever want to give an inch.

Cooperative competition. All I see is competition, and no cooperation.

Your home is not your life. It's not your character, it's not your character's progress. It's not your safety deposit box. It's not your anti-consequences bubble.

And regarding this being something else just for pure sec_techs, it would make much more sense if it involved a variety of skills/tools/stats depending on the door/lock/security systems/traps. Cracking, Programming, Secure_Tech, Thievery, Electro_Tech, Systems, Explosives, Rigging... These are all skills that could be used in a variety of ways. It's never going to be just 'max secure_tech guy magically opens every door easily'.

And lastly, think about the consequences of people getting caught for this. Even in the Mix. Think of the investment in skills, tools, possibly bringing multiple people, and then getting caught. Think of the massive risk someone is going through everytime they try this, everyone involved even just by association, risking their entire rep, life, for an apartment that in the end, if the owner just cares a little bit, might not have anything that even begins to cover the costs or risks.

If you are storing your entire life in your apartment, you are actively detracting from the game. Make yourself vulnerable, bring out plot items. Spend flash on players. Invest in your security. And if they end up taking your paintings or some of your clothes or whatever you keep at home, then good. Go out, speak to the WJF, or gangs, or private contractors. Give them RP. Find your stuff. Make them pay. Stuff doesn't 'disappear' from the game.

It only disappears if it stays locked in your unbreakable apartment. Then it might as well not exist.

It's not hyperbole. Help farming exists for a reason. Staff has had to adjust prices in the past because of how farming can get. The same sentiment is applicable to breaking into people's apartments when they're offline. It's a target that is not aware, not online, incapable of reacting in the moment or having even the illusion of agency (which is why this is different than being killed/fighting off people, which I think people who are trying to make the argument that the two are the same know they actually aren't) and a -chance-.

This is a roleplaying game. It's an interactive game. It's an intense game. I'm online more than most people. Consistently twelve to sixteen hours a day. What about the person who only has a few hours a day to play? Or less? How does this benefit them? How's it fun to log in, find all your stuff gone not because you didn't close your door, or because you trusted the wrong person, but because of a coded mechanic that happened while you were offline with no chance for you to respond or engage at all. And now you're spending your couple or few hours in-game trying to track down the cold trail of a person who hit you while you're offline.

That's not fun for the majority of people. Reefer's suggestions are a good compromise and are far more compelling short and long-term for the game in my opinion.

I love playing the game. I love what we're able to do in-game and the promise of continued coded features. But as much as I love the game, the truth for me and I suspect most people is simple: I don't want to stress about the game when I'm logged out.

No no no no no no no no no please no. I wouldn't be able to take it. No no no no. I really appreciated what MrFye said about more people playing during the pandemic, and when things finally go back to pre-pandemic normalcy, I don't want to be punished for taking my first steps out of my IRL house in months just to find MONTHS of IC work devastated because I wasn't online at the time, even if I shut my pad's door and had no roommates and made the right choices ICly for keeping a safe residence etc etc.

My char also keeps a lot of sentimental items in their apartment, and if I lost those while I was not online to protect them, I would be devastated, demoralized, and I would most likely quit the game for good. I'm not exaggerating. And this does NOT mean that I wouldn't be able to deal with a break-in if it happened while I was going in or out of my apartment, or if someone broke into my pad because I trusted the wrong person to give my code to. If your cube or pad can just be broken into with a dice roll while the player is OOCly not available, it kills the fun of the game, it kills your character's personal agency, and frankly it kills the whole point of apartments to begin with, which is a safe place that characters are encouraged to not share with people they don't trust. What's the point of an apartment if your stuff is only marginally safer there than it is living on the streets? Gated behind a skill or not, gated behind a door or a vent or whatever, B&E would kill the game for me and I think many other people too.

Also, there's already enough problems with people idling for hours on SD with their SIC statuses set to 'Sleeping' and reading their logs of the SIC chatter and security feeds without actually being accessible ICly. If B&E became a thing, I know I'd feel extremely pressured to be logged in -all- the time, half-monitoring the screen while turning down RP because I would be IRL busy. Others have mentioned how intense SD is already. I love the intensity but I also like to be able to -react- to it! It would absolutely decimate my mental health if I constantly had to be worried about whether my sleeping, locked-door character would have their room randomly broken into. And let's say I check in the middle of the night, 4am. Go to sleep. Five minutes later, the room is broken into. That's not healthy to always have to worry about!

And I think that people NEED safe spaces where they feel that they and their stuff will be relatively secure, be it in the form of apartments, cubes, or even coffins. People have brought up how this would encourage chars to distribute their stuff in lots of different locations so as not to lose all of it. I see this as a drawback not an advantage. Just imagine midbie characters buying up all the Westinghaus apartments to use them as cheap additional storage cubes. We already have a housing shortage.

All in all, I am so so so against this idea. I think that we should listen to players who've been around for a long time like HolyChrome and crashdown, and that staff should invest more in exciting plots/threats/skills that players can have fun with while LOGGED IN.

I am on the fence on this.

Pros for letting people Break In:

* Giving people protection in their pads, both from being murdered and robbed really is an another advantage for older players. Newer characters have less to loose and this would be one of the few ways that they could actually punch up without being crushed.

* Give's ways for people to get at enemies who never leave their cube/apartment.

* Makes people diversify their stuff into lockers and other places. Yes, a place can be hit, but not likely all of them at once.

* Makes some skills more useful.

* Promotes conflict, especially among people who play at different times.

Cons for Breaking and Entering:

* Causes a lot of anxiety (as seen by this thread)

* Promotes bad RL behavior as the desire to be always in game is increased.

* It's nice to have somewhere that you don't always have to be on your guard.

* Does not directly contribute to RP and it's likely that most people will react like DIPs, shrug their shoulders and move on.

* Could disrupt plans that were months in the making.

Overall:

I think I'd rather see it in game than out. I think we need more tools to allow people to get back at their enemies rather than less. I get that people are annoyed that they lose something and there was "no RP to go with it". However, I've never gotten RP when I've been dipped. Often don't see RP on a beatdown other than it happening. No RP when crates were taken from me. So... I have a hard time with that argument... I suppose the amount of loss is less in most of those cases, but RP should not be a reason to prevent having this in game.

However, I wouldn't want to see this change without one or more changes:

1) Addition of the equivalent of rental storage facilities. They could have guards and all for you to store things into. Between something like that, lockers, and apartments, you could spread your things around to make your risk a lot less. I also like that this punishes hoarders a little in that they have to travel about to switch out gear easily.

2) A look at how long it takes to be good at something. Part of the fear of the B&E or a murder is that it can take months to get the things you need to be decent at a thing. Having that wiped out is discouraging for a lot of players. If that balance can be examined again, and perhaps shortening the curve, then the fear of loss might be a lot better.

3) It should be expensive and time consuming to B&E and Apartment complexes should have security revisited so that NPCs might find and try to stop you. That at least makes it more risky than just a skill check. Could also be another source of player jobs.

no offense, but why do people think increasing conflict between players from different time zones/playing hours is a good idea? as an anglo player its basically impossible to interact with some players from other time zones sometimes without staying up rly late, why foster conflict when people cant interact?
I mean. Some of the comments here seem to be from players who will benefit from this who are having trouble reaching their enemies.

On the whole, a coded, free-for-those-skilled, breaking and entering system will be more negative than positive.

However, if there is an issue of unreachable people who never leave their apartment after causing conflict - then I would like to see something based on circumstances to allow it.

Remember - allowing breaking and entering as coded pretty much gives someone the freedom to kill a character whilst they're logged off. This is an important thing to note when we are considering adding in this feature. It's not just robbing but it is murdering someone offline.

Call me a pessimist but I doubt that those in favour of this are doing saying so because someone murdered them and are now hiding in their apartment for three weeks straight without leaving but remaining online for hours at a time... if this is the case then I do think that is a discussion you need to have with staff on those circumstances...

But what people are proposing? This will be abused like crazy. Dipping is one thing. Stealing - even killing - a player whilst they cannot even respond is a whole other thing. Will players REALLY target their enemies? It will become farming. It will be a case of 'this character has been around a few months... they seem worth breaking into'.

Now... a happy middle would be.... why not allow breaking and entering to businesses and other locations only. That would put power in those with the skillset and help push heists (even topside crime) if someone can break in without being detected. Combat characters would be hiring these 'Techies' for their skills.

That creates some great RP plots without just stomping on some player because they happen to have a few good things in their apartment... or some parent who has barely been able to log in for the last few days due to a sick child.

I will always argue against those pushing mechanics and saying RP does not matter. Roleplay is the whole reason I play Sindome and I'd hope the vast majority do too. Are people really suggesting that 'beating your enemies' whilst they are logged off is more important than good roleplay (including conflict) and building a great story together for all our characters?

For those who are stuck with being unable to reach their enemies because they turtle up? I think that merits a whole discussion about this rather than simply pushing for B&E as a cure.

I think if you can break into most vehicles in the games, then you should be able to do the same with most apartment doors. You can upgrade your vehicles security system, you should be able to upgrade your pad doors, etc, etc.

Nobody likes/wants getting robbed or killed in the cyberpunk game, I get it...kind of.

How about we just test this out with cubes only? Cubes are suppose to be dirt-cheap and it would make sense for them to have lower security than apartments.

There are plenty of cheap corpies and poor mixers that live in cubes, be it temporarily or permanently and some people use it for cheap storage for large size items aka stash cubes.

This way you enable BnE in a limited capacity and we can get to beta test it a bit and see if it would be as terrible and nefarious as some folx think or not. And those who don't want to risk it, can just move outside their cubes.

Lets throw a bone to the poor secure tech people and give them more biz and more rp.

My concern with that GhostInTheMachine is you are going to punish newer players who use cubes. It could push some players fresh to Sindome to give up.

Slither's comments above state that making lockers available to B&E would just stop having players use them. Wouldn't this be the same to cubes? And really, the vast majority of people using cubes are those who are new to the game or don't own a membership pad. It would punish those who are getting situated in the game or those who cannot financially afford a membership pad - both have more potential to harm RP than increase it. I'd rather have more people to RP with (especially in my timezone) than less.

Vehicles are completely different to apartments. If someone steals my car while I'm offline? Yes, I'll be pissed but it doesn't involve in my character death. Let's be real, breaking and entering an apartment is going to just result in lots of offline murders rather than thieving.

If Secure Tech people have less money making options then let's give them some that does not mess with the IC/OOC divide as much as having access to CHARACTERS while they are offline.

Let them break into backrooms of businesses. Let them be able to 'hack' the one employment terminal per

Again, I'm all for giving more power to Secure Tech players. But if that's the case, let's make it so drivers can ram into apartment doors. Let's have players be able to hack players' brains whilst asleep and murder them.

It's a logistical nightmare to have B&E but requires staff approval - and far more of a nightmare if players can just mess with characters when the player is not present.

Roleplay is a two way street - being able to access the only safe areas for players to step away from the game and deal with stuff IRL so they can get back to more RP - will only harm the community as a whole. Roleplay when the other player is not online does not add anything to both parties.

Now a mugging? Kidnapping? Dipping? They are all effect both players - and bystanders - whilst they are IC and Roleplaying and benefits all involved.

B&E apartments just opens a huge can of worms that frankly I think is best left shut. There are other ways we can help Secure Tech characters. There are other ways we can assist players who need to hit up a character back but are struggling. There are ways we can create fun RP plots to 'hit up' those who are relatively safe.

All of these do not require breaking the IC/OOC divide which frankly is the point of apartments. It would be completely different if when logged out you cannot be murdered at all or 'disappear'.... then B&E would seem much more viable.

I still like air duct fishing made available only while someone is in the apartment and awake.

I was hoping for some negative criticism about why it's a bad idea, but it doesn't seem like anyone chimed in much on Reefer or my posts.

I see the most valuable benefit from it as motivating people to get out of their pads.

Plus, if a perpetrator couldn't fish things out of cabinets, then you could easily throw your most valuable/sentimental stuff into a cabinet to keep it safe.

Maybe it is a bad idea, but I'd love to know why it's a bad idea. I put a lot of thought into ways it could encourage RP without it being a 5-minute loot spree, and without it negatively affecting newer players worse than established ones.

Sorry alittlelonger that it seems like your idea was glossed over. I'm fairly confident it was not the intention of anyone posting to do so.

Your idea is something that adds RP and something that I would support, despite being so vocal against B&E.

It gets some people out of the apartment.

It creates roleplay for EVERYONE in that apartment building.

It gives power to Secure Tech.

It adds another 'layer' to buildings.

And it's been thought of with balance in mind.

I think the main issue with your idea being in this thread is it seems to me (I may be wrong) but the people want B&E to get at the characters themselves. This is more for hitting those who turtle than just wanting Secure Tech players to have more biz. Your idea is great but the ones that seems people want B&E for can afford a cabinet or safe to protect their items.

I would personally suggest you post your idea in the Ideas thread as it's less B&E and more a coded feature that seems - to me - really balanced and fun.. and I would love to see it added!

@MrFye My concern with that GhostInTheMachine is you are going to punish newer players who use cubes. It could push some players fresh to Sindome to give up.

If new players can't roll with the punches and are going to give up at the first sign of adversity, I'd rather they quit the game than stay and become risk adverse ficuses.

If you are a new player who lives in a cube in the mix, then you don't have that much to lose to being with and if you are a new corpie you can afford to take the hit and will bounce back in no time (you shouldn't be in that cube to being with, in fact you should be shamed, chastised and ridiculed by your peer for living like a bum according to theme).

Membership pads are not mandatory or even necessary in this game, I haven't had one for years and it hasn't make a big difference. The doors are all pretty much the same, but if we change that we can have people migrate out of cubes which have been saturated in the past and not only by new players I might add.

You know there are very old and clear rules about not killing or moving offline players, right? So I don't understand that part of your argument.

Sounds reasonable to xhelp and do the BnE both while players and admins are online I guess, and again BnE already exists just in a different way.

All that being said, for what I can read here this is not happening, so I'll save my metaphorical breath.

@GhostInTheMachine

You know there are very old and clear rules about not killing or moving offline players, right? So I don't understand that part of your argument.

My comments about this are in regard to others' above about murdering characters in their apartment/cube.... or waiting for them to wake up. Naturally you can still do this of course (with other mechanics) beyond a coded B&E.

I'm unclear, MrFye, you're predicting that people would break the sleeper abuse rules if they could access them behind their locked door?
My point is people would try to use the B&E system to give a valid cause for plots to then murder someone. The point is, murdering a sleeper has been bad form but can be allowed if it makes logical sense on rare occasions.

KILLING SLEEPERS

This is extremely poor form, lacks roleplay entirely, and is not codedly allowed. Finding ways to circumvent the block on killing sleepers is against the rules and will result in you being banned if it is detected (and it will be detected).

If you believe you are in a situation that warrants you killing a sleeping character you may xhelp to discuss with the admin but you are most likely not in a special situation and should not consider doing it. Imagine if you fell asleep and woke up dead and how annoying that would be.

Now imagine how many people would xhelp Staff saying things like "Joe Baka has been murdering me for weeks. And now I'm in his apartment. Can steal his shit. In reality my character would snap his neck... blah blah blah." at which point the staff would have to decide if there are exceptions or that simply you cannot murder any character sleeping in their apartment.

At which point, that still does not address the key issue at hand. Players would be getting screwed over whilst offline (and when staff are offline) when there are soooo many more ways to 'hit' a character where it hurts whilst they are online. It wouldn't be a case of getting even at the character - it would be in a grey area of farming.

It would require some conditions being in place for when the staff are not available, just to keep it in control and keep the staff able to still help us where they're needed. Or that it requires staff support... which correct me if I'm wrong, is already a thing anyway.

I'm just struggling to see where any of the reasons people are proposing go beyond simply "I wanna steal shit!".

Again, I will repeat this - if there are 'untouchable' characters that are hide in apartments (which seems to be the main stance on the pro-B&E side) then I would rather we have a mature civil discussion about how we can address this rather than simply stating Breaking and Entering will solve it and anyone who doesn't agree simply doesn't get Sindome.

I just don't see how adding this as a coded mechanic will do anything except cause bleed and players themselves to be harmed. Like many of stated above, some random Secure Tech stealing from someone's house could harm a plot involving multiple people... and not because they got wind of it through paydata but just because they wanted to loot someone's house.

@MrFye

I gave a bunch of reasons but if I had to pick a big one, it would be theme. And no, I don't have a vendetta, or got killed by someone who just went and hid in their apartment or whatever reason.

The mix is a hellhole, and from another thread a while back, perspective on it seems to be 40/60 on whether or not it actually feels dangerous and shitty to be in. If you make a mix character, you are making a conscious choice of playing a character where you will be attacked, robbed and killed on a semi-regular basis. I already had my say in that other thread that after playing a character that was very conflict-seeking and dangerous, I pretty much never got into any trouble in the mix that I didn't start. Except for the random dip once or twice, but those literally do not affect a character beyond being a minor annoyance. That to me, is a huge issue.

I saw the culture shift even in the short couple of years I've played where the mix had a pretty hostile air to it, people didn't want to help you, NPCs would try to get you in trouble, and people would randomly target you even for just not liking the way you look.

Now, unless you start trouble yourself, the mix feels like just another place to live. Immies are coddled, artists are all successful and loved, dips are rare, and as a whole, mixers seem to generally band together (if facetiously) against a common enemy.

This isn't about 'fixing a problem'. Help Farming, as people mentioned once or twice, is about abusing NPCs, has nothing to do with this. And people are not going to go on massive random looting sprees, jesus that is not how the game works or would work. The strongest characters in the game right now are not running around killing people or robbing them because they can't be stopped. The people with the most money aren't just buying out or killing their competition with solos. Nobody who's spent a long enough time with the game to be at that position is going to do that, and even if they did, there are ways to stop it.

Go loiter around even in shitty apartment blocks, looking suspiciously, hide, have a weapon out, valuable tool, whatever. Even without coded NPC responses, you will get in trouble. I've had characters being killed for literally just looking in some apartments buildings they shouldn't. In the MIX. Try doing that in Green, see how far you get.

If we're making assumptions about why people want or don't want this, mine is simply that people don't want consequences for having a completely defenceless apartment in the slums of Red where they can just put hundreds of thousands worth of gear and not worry because the current B&E method is so boring nobody wants to bother with it. There are already methods to protect your stuff and there would be many more if a system like this was implemented.

And people have yet to tell me how getting robbed while offline is different from you logging off, someone who doesn't like you deciding to send a solo after you, who either waits outside your door or catches you when you're around and vats you. You're not getting RP or a choice in any of that, the only choice you have is to hide and not play the game if you want to avoid it.

Hell, this is a game with /permadeath/. So why is it that people perming (against their will) is so rare? Because there's an unspoken rule that you don't really perm characters unless they make it clear they want it. Again, nobody's going to stop you if you have the means and decide you're going to perm someone. It's within the rules and there are plenty of people who are more than capable. So why is it not a constant, like these looting sprees you're claiming will happen? Why doesn't just every character that can, perm their rival? Because we're all here to roleplay, not to amass loot or 'win' feuds.

This is an immensely childish outlook, damaging to the game, and honestly, even with some players being... Meta and game-y at times, it's never going to happen at anywhere near that scale. If you're targeted, it's almost always for a reason, and if you don't want those consequences, play nice, get defences, get contacts, move to a better apartment, never let anyone know where you live, move your assets, the options are endless.

But just saying 'it'll be stressful OOC so no' is a huge copout. The game is already stressful OOC at every turn. Might as well just have us sign waivers OOC whenever there's conflict starting to make sure both parties agree to it.

@Sly

I apologise for the long reply guys but I wanted to give Sly a proper response as they have raised some great points.

Firstly Farming and Help Farming are two different things. I cannot speak for others but for myself when I've mentioned farming, I mean people making B&E as their main income. Nothing to do with NPC Farming. You say players don't go massive random looting sprees.. but that's because they would have to killing and robbing people. Breaking and Entering at it's core would be enabling that would it not? It's literally a criminal occupation. Cat burglar. Which would be fun. So many are concerned that there would have to be some coded balance in play there.

To address your first point. I suspect the culture shift IC in the mix is more to do with IC reasons that I will not get into here. Though I do totally agree there has been a huuuuge change to the Mix from years ago. On the flipside, both the mix and topside seems more alive most of the day. I guess we need to find the balance now? I remember back in the day it was difficult to find new characters to RP in my timezone most of the time... and most events were very late at night. It was always hard to get into trouble for me. But now something is always going on, which is the silver lining. Though I do agree that the Mix has become far different... a different discussion for a different topic.

Robbing someone's apartment while they are offline is completely different to IC Online robbing, let's be real here. To suggest otherwise is going a bit far. If I am robbed while logged in, I get to experience my character going through the stress of that. Do I fight back? Do I allow it to happen? What's my next plan? Do I accept it as something that happened? Or do I track down that person? How will I get revenge!? There's so many story threads to go off that my character and (I as a player) have available.

Now imagine you log in and all your crap is gone. You don't know what happened. You just have to try and find out. Yes, you could get RP from that. Yes you could hire a forensics expert or something. That would give them more RP, sure. But the concern by many is someone can come in when they know your character is asleep (due to timezones) and simply rob them. If they do so without being detected, they are a ghost.

Now for many things, I would praise this. Someone rat me out and I have no idea who it was? Well played. Someone dip me and I have no idea who did it? Well played. Someone who sent me a threat on SIC and I have no[/i] idea who it was so I am so immersed in my character that I become super paranoid? Well fucking played.

But at the end of the day, if we are going to have no IC/OOC divide then this will conflict with basic advice given to new players. Players are advised to log out if you they experiencing bleed from IC events. We are told that you need to log out in safe locations otherwise, there could be consequences. I agree people should not be hoarding hundreds of thousands worth of gear in their apartment, especially if they are doing shady ass things... but Slither said this is not an issue?

On the flip side, Sindome by design is a long term investment. You work hard for weeks, sometimes months, to obtain something. Yes, you should know you may lose it soon. But imagine you spent ages (with limited time around work, unlike many who can log in longer due to working from home....ect) to finally get an item that will help you in a plot or an IC profession.... and then you are robbed the next day whilst logged off.

Not whilst carrying it around - after bragging to others let's say - which results in someone mugging you. Not because Joe Baka, your rival, saw you and wanted to fuck with you. Just because you needed to sleep IRL and someone knew you go to sleep at a certain time. To go back to Slither's start to this thread, we are here to RP together, which without a doubt you are here for too.

Just because someone does not support B&E does not mean they are conflict adverse. They just want to be present for the conflict. They want themely things they can experience themselves. I do think that it's important to discuss that balance would be key here. Yes, you could rationalise that all the Red buildings are crap security. Okay.... so then are only those who have been playing longer who have the funds to upgrade it going to be fine whilst others are not? It depends how expensive upgrade systems will be. They can't be cheap, because then everybody will have them. Flipside, if they're too expensive, only the already 'untouchables' will have them.

I would love a balanced B&E system. But then at the same time, we have items that cost more than half a year's rent when in reality those items should be far cheaper. Why? Balance. I just cannot fathom how you can balance this. If you rent a shitty cheap apartment or cube to save money? Fine... you should be more at risk than someone who upgraded that shit.

But again, this has a lot of potential to benefit those who can log on more, have played the game longer or have more chyen/toys and everyone else. Some people are already struggling to punch up. This will just make some people even more untouchable - "Don't mess with me or I'll rob everything you own." is this in theme? Well, yes. But is it fair. The Mix isn't fair IC but by fair I mean does it benefit the community and player base?

As others have stated this seems it would not only require a lot coding but a restructuring of balance that will take some time to adjust. If the staff can come up with a balanced way to do it, I'm sure they will. It's more they want to know what people think of it. There's a reason this is still not fully coded in the game yet. And although we've had a lot of features recently that will start to slow down. From my laymen eyes, B&E seems a lot of coding across the whole dome that will require plenty of testing by the staff and working out how to implement into the game with limited bugs and not break the game. This won't just affect apartments but every single coded door.

As for your final comment Sly, I can agree that the 'strongest' (whether financially, influentially, physically...ect) characters throw their weight around without just crushing anyone for the sake of it just from reputation... as it should be. My original concerns about the looting spree is that dipping allows you (or others) to spot it. It's a skill check from the dip to the target. Whereas a coded B&E is coded against the environment... more than likely when the 'target' is sleeping/offline. So there's no response (unless obviously other PCs are by chance in the hallway or Staff Puppet NPCs).

My concerns above have been with it being much safer to do against a player than dipping, kidnapping, attacking, murder....ect... especially when timezones are different between both parties. It will be the new META over dipping. It's brings an OOC element into IC play in a grey area on whether it's fair or not or if a 'fair play' stance will be taken by those breaking in.

I get the feeling you and others assume that myself and others that are opposed to B&E are also opposed to conflict or 'don't get Sindome'? That's not the case. I'd rather someone hire a solo to rough me up if my character pissed another character off than be robbed whilst sleeping IRL... at least then I, the solo, my 'enemy' all get involved RP that can develop into a deeper plot. It's not childish to be wary of players simply robbing players whilst they sleep rather than do anything more 'risky' with this feature. I have a job. I should be able to focus on that job and return back to SD and immerse myself in SD without seeing months of work down the drain just because a hackiboi hacked a door because they needed chy.

Maybe B&E only being available whilst the player is logged on could work... but then, that could also cause some players to hide in the apartments more. It's a very difficult way to balance this in a way that it's both fair but not a pointless mechanic (which is a conclusion I'd like to think all players would love to reach) and I think this is the main hurdle.

Now I fully expect older players to follow what you said Sly and I think it highlights the only real way fair way to have B&E in game. Those who have plenty of UE or influence and such are not going around targeting people randomly. The concern seems to be to those who won't restrain themselves as such. Why should someone lose 5 months of collecting items for a specific plot because someone a few weeks into the game has the required skills and tools to break their door. So having B&E as a "high skill/stats based" feature of Secure Tech is something I could get behind purely because the people having it would more than likely have the PLAYER experience to not go around robbing random people. In fact they could enable 'hitting up' in exchange for as a "Tech Solo". These "Tolos" would have no reason IC to go around just robbing everyone for flash constantly either... because like you said previously Sly, they would be seen worse than a dip.

This discussion has been tiring for me, so what I would like to leave for those continuing the discussion - everyone's comments are worth discussing here. If they weren't, the staff would be discussing this in private, not Slither making this thread. But things are starting to get a little bit heated. If my own comments did get anyone's backs up, that was not my intent, and I apologise. But Please cut down on the passive aggression chummers.

Let's all debate with smiles... we all grit our teeth and talk shit enough at each other IC.

MrFrye raised something excellent -- Sindome, because of its nature, is a game where bleed and stress get high. If we can no longer advise people to 'go and log off for a while' to step away from what's happening IC, I think that's a serious issue.

Some scheme of B&E that requires people to be awake is the best idea, I think, if we need B&E at all.

Addressing some of MrFye's points...

>Breaking and Entering at it's core would be enabling that would it not? It's literally a criminal occupation. Cat burglar. Which would be fun.

Part of the reason I'm very interested in this topic is because I've played that character. I'd go as far as to say it was their main source of income throughout their life. And I can tell you that even the very secure apartments in the upper sectors can be broken into with some creativity, completely silently. That is also a very good reason why I'd want to see this system, because the current one is... Awful. You are already completely exposed to those horror stories of coming back to find your apartment empty. I don't want that. I want people to be able to defend their apartments. I want a full system behind it so it's not as unfair and un-interactable as it currently is.

>...are only those who have been playing longer who have the funds to upgrade it going to be fine whilst others are not?

Yes. Just outright yes. Because that's how the entire rest of the game works. If you're an immy, and you don't have a clone, you need to be careful. If you're strong enough, you probably can avoid paying tolls. If you're wealthy, you can threaten and resolve problems with your currency. The entire game is balanced around how old your character is.

>But again, this has a lot of potential to benefit those who can log on more, have played the game longer or have more chyen/toys and everyone else. Some people are already struggling to punch up.

The game is already benefitting people who log on more on every level except UE (and even that, not everyone has enough time to log on every day and get the max amount). If this was a problem, the entire game would have to be restructured from the ground up. I've been vocal about how I don't like how /much/ value the game puts on UE and logged on time, but time spent and UE should still have considerable value.

And no. It's meant to even the playing field. Yes, the solo can threaten you with robbing you blind, but he could already threaten that, if they really wanted to. Plus killing you, torturing you, all the other stuff. The only difference the B&E system would make is that now, you can also do it to them. There's a venue of opportunity that's linked with preparation and material resources, instead of just pure UE. Are they still going to have a big advantage? Pretty likely, but at least it's a possibility, unlike combat.

>My original concerns about the looting spree is that dipping allows you (or others) to spot it. It's a skill check from the dip to the target.

Yes, but is there a choice there? Is there any actual input? Is there anything you can do, there, in the moment, to stop it? No. If the dip is good enough, you'll only notice later and will likely not be able to do a thing about it. Yeah, you can invest into the stats to spot them but that's not really an argument, since you can also invest in your own apartment security. It's the same thing.

>My concerns above have been with it being much safer to do against a player than dipping, kidnapping, attacking, murder....ect... especially when timezones are different between both parties.

Take it from me, it's much easier to kill someone than it is to rob them, in most cases. And also take it from me, most people will care a lot more about their things than they do their life. This thread is proof of that.

Timezones are timezones. There's nothing we can do about them. If you're in the wrong timezone, you're already going to miss a ton of stuff and the game can't change or bend to accommodate for that. If I play in the early hours of the morning and this person I'm feuding with plays at night, and they're messing with my business, attacking my friends, etc, I can't do anything about that.

I will say that I think even in a very optimistic case where this is implemented thoroughly and fairly, the playerbase would generally not like it, and for that reason, I don't want it because it'll push players away. I wish people had a different perspective, but it is what it is. I've known there is very little trust between players for a long while and that's partly justified, but... Just a shame that (in my opinion) the game suffers because of it.

"But just saying 'it'll be stressful OOC so no' is a huge copout. The game is already stressful OOC at every turn. Might as well just have us sign waivers OOC whenever there's conflict starting to make sure both parties agree to it."

When I think about the things I'd change with Sindome, "add constant anxiety-inducing chance of losing everything while you're asleep in real life" isn't really at the top of the list. I expect it'd drive EVEN MORE new players off in aid of your hardcore gaming experience. I know if I could just get all my shit taken from my apartment without any of it being my fault, I might just quit. I've got enough stressful shit in my life.

if i cant take a break without stressing out about what may be happening to my character and my character's belongings in my absence, bleed would become unmanageable for me.
More cons than pros;

As a person who can devise many ways of getting around such system, so expect to see people go @ooc with a lot of valuable shit on them when they sleep instead of actually logging out.

Expect people to stuff absolutely everything of value into lockers at New Rose or NEO, leaving shitty things in their apartment.

Expect people to start investing into AVs and high-tier shocker systems instead of apartments, maybe invest into nothing else but an AV so they can just fly up to sites that cannot be reached on foot in Withmore, just so they can sleep.

Expect people to stop buying good things, relying on nothing but depot clothes and stuffing anything of value away into lockers and money in the bank.

Expect secure-tech people being killed over and over again with no RP, because they suspect that they could've robbed them and they're fucking pissed about it OOCily.

Things like that.

Beside, you already can B&E without secure-tech, I used to do it and was successful at it, you just need to be patient.

Please no B&E as a coded skill.
So after reading all of this and giving my .02. I think I personally would really want it in game. This is with the full understanding that I'd likely be the target as opposed to benefitting from it. All the arguments against it that I've seen are already risks that exist to one degree or another. The lack of RP matches other ways that people 'lose' in the game dip, combat, etc. where they have no chance and no RP from it. So for me, it adds a way to punch up and has very little downside for those who are already targets of being punched down.

With that said...

While I am personally for it. I would not want it in game based on the apparent amount of consternation, bleed and anxiety it would cause based on the feedback in the thread. While it wouldn't bother me, that it would others to a large degree is enough for me to fall in the no camp. It's a game and should remain as much so for a lot of people.

I'd love for this to dovetail into a discussion on how to make it so when you do 'lose' and start over, getting to decent is faster... because that seems to be the elephant in the room on a lot of these discussions. "I'd lose months of work" is a hard thing to accept or swallow in any system. B&E is probably less frightening if you can recover in weeks instead of months.

My two cents after reading this, having been robbed in multiple ways - lone individuals, groups, on multiple sectors with varying forms of RP ranging from solo retribution to Judge investigations.

Breaking and Entering is fun when its done through RP. While its a bit upsetting for a short time, having your stuff stolen because you were out maneuvered and let your guard down and so input #1 got her various buddies together and robbed you to remove X plot device and X important materials from your apartment to hinder your progress ends up being fun because of the ensueing RP, either in the Mix with the gangs or TERRA (like it had been in the past on occasion), or topside with the Judges/Corps/your varying friends being vigilantes. You can prevent some of this happening if you have hidden items, safes, etc, but it leads to line of roleplaying. I could even extend this to have this be included with something like secure tech or electro tech with hackers needing to access the grid and have specialized equipment that require x y and z to work, depending on the door. This would open up opportunities for breaking and entering not just in apartments, but in buildings with eye scanners, hand scanners, and the like.

Breaking and Entering on the flip side, was not fun when apartments that used to have flimsy key hatches existed. It allowed a fairly low-UE character to do something to get to said hatch, kick it in, and get all your stuff with little to no RP, circumventing the door you paid to have secured, usually for a pricey rent. It seems that this is the kind of Breaking and Entering people are against.

Breaking and Entering as a concept is good - I would love to be able to sneak around the corps, using my partners B and E skills to be able to get through doors, disguise to try to pass as a worker, all that stuff. Breaking and Entering on apartments without some kind of over site or checks however, would cause some issues just because of the inherent nature of no one being around/able to respond while it happens.

Maybe it could involve a modification of the buzz feature on apartments, forwarding an email. Maybe its something that would require the RP be done, but the opening of the door wouldn't be immediate, allowing for both inner and outer RP in regards to noticing if the breaking in was happening (kinda like how tattoos take x amount of time depending on skill).

I skimmed some of these ideas for substitutions and they're pretty good. Vent ducts and stuff sounds interesting. That said, I'll add my voice to the list of people who would hate to have a B&E skill, for all the reasons listed above. I've been on both sides before, usually more on the side of the antag. Trying to perform a B&E is so AGGRAVATING. The timing required to pull it off is ridiculous, not to mention the setup, and God forbid you D/C halfway through or your significant other wants you to do something cause you're fucked man, game over. Let's be real, B&E as it is sometimes requires several hours of investment, potentially more, doing nothing but staring at an unmoving screen waiting for the thing to happen that you need to happen.

Most of us know the feeling all too well, and even with the awful shit show that B&E is right now I wouldn't change it for fear that anything else would be waaay too cheesy and unbalanced for the victim. It'd be cool if there were more ways to get out of somebody's apartment, but even that seems imbalanced to me.

All the ideas that require the victim to be online that I've skimmed through are pretty great though.

No no no no and an added PLEASE no.

Sindome is a wonderful escape but as many have already mentioned, can easily become a stressful environment as it is. There are already many ways in which you can lose even paltry wealth and items you've scraped for over the course of weeks, MONTHS, that some players can't easily replace or just go hunting for it back like everyone will suggest outside of 'oh well get over it'. For all the insistence others will make that you have options for retribution after theft or murder, my personal experience has not yet proven that correct. It is VERY difficult to find answers, and if you were robbed blind good luck affording paydata if you even happen to find someone who may actually know something relevant.

This game is already a massive timesink for better or worse, whether it's in the race to make money, fostering your relationships with other characters or both. It kind of inherently makes you feel obligated to log on every day for at least a few hours, the last thing this game needs as others have already touched on is the added and ultimately unfair element of B&E while you're offline sleeping or working or just trying to get AFK for a bit.

If someone wants to break into an apartment, they can do so through methods that ALREADY EXIST like waiting for the owner to open my door and sneaking inside with them.

I am interested in the idea honestly.

To get back to the point at another topic raise by Reefermadness about retinal scanners for B&E, I really like the idea of places of work being less secure. At least retinal scanners specifically at places of work, corporate espionage, spying and so on at places of work was something I always thought could really use slightly more ease of entry. With so many workers going through areas of work, it would stand to reason that the potential retinal scans might not be as super accurate as perhaps an apartment building might be. (IC reasoning behind retinal scanning working on work locations and not in apartments?)

PC Crime topside seems to struggle, but the idea you could spend a bit of investment into scoping out a corps security and staff timing, investing in a solo to nab an employee to take an eye, break in, grab a load of pay data and sell it off to the highest bidder or ransom it back to the corp. Or even have corp on corp action doing such.

I also feel that retinal scans could only work if the owner of the eye was alive. It brings about a lot more risk, RP, planning, and that idea could cut out some of the problems put forward too. Like the idea of being offline while this stuff goes down.

-On to this topic specifically.

I saw there was a response from ReeferMadness suggesting that there could introduce tools for data gathering in. It heavily reduces the anxiety of ‘loss of work’ it introduces the possibility of pay data growing and growing as a heavily involved back bone to Sindome with direct skill supported paths into it.

Also, it means that there is the opportunity for security companies and specialists trusted in securing your home can come into play. “Someone found out about your private conversation at home, perhaps you have a bug in there? Call us for apartment scanning now”

It also introduces risk to those gathering that data, someone finds a camera or a bug in your apartment it could potentially be traced back.

I am aware that things like this already exist, but it would be interesting to see it expanded upon. Sure a person can’t get into a fort Knox style apartment, but a tiny drone with a mic and camera might?

Paydata in my experience seems to hold much more value to RP than money or items IMHO.

-As for a potential measure to look at, what about insurance?

Something I have found a little odd is there is not any sort of insurance PC or NPC in Sindome. Given that IRL insurance borders on criminal already, it really amazes me that there isn’t some big corp charging unreasonable rates to insure your shit. Or apartment owners being held responsible for loss or damage to apartment contents.

-Local populous engagement

neighbours are nosey right now IRL, in Sindome I would imagine even more so. There are pubsic shouts for various things happening in the world, if it does get implemented why would there not be pubsic announcements, potential building lockdowns, response from gangs or the WJF or have a go heroes trying to being a good neighbour?

-Making enjoyable RP for the Victim

I think regardless of anything said above or by anyone, if it is implemented in the way people seem to think it might. It needs to create RP in an enjoyable way for those involved, loss can be enjoyable if there is a tangible chance of returning the favour.

Understanding as well as both a player and as staff that the items within an apartment could be literally hundreds of hours maybe even thousands of hours of investment. I am not talking about chy, I am talking about custom clothing, art, props, writing and so on. Anyone who has done anything with the crafting system knows how much work can go into those kinds of things. They offer no ‘advancement’ in the game, and those without the understanding of how much work goes into them might simply take and destroy that work.

With the understanding that work like that is relatively safe lends itself to people creating which is wonderful. IF there is no safety net for that kind of input into the game, it -could- cause it to constrict massively, which I think would be a shame.

I am not sure if my mental ramblings will be helpful, or inspiring, but have a star and a hug for getting to this point.

Can't wait to treat SD like it's just another Rust wipe.
I think that stealing mechanics as they are in the game right now, with no B&E, are absurdly overpowered as is. Adding B&E into the zero to low probability of player interaction 'farm players for money' bucket would be a deal-breaker.

Unless staff is willing to sit in on every B&E job in the game and make sure that it's not being abused by a few people (it will be) to target a few other people (which it will be), than I think this is a non-starter.

There's already a problem in SD today whereby players don't carry valuables on them throughout most of the games populated sectors because of people using thievery to farm chyen, which hurts far more players than just the thief and the mark due to the perception that players have to minimize risk and RP their character in gamey ways. I think that if B&E was added, we'd see exactly the same thing happen, where people go to lengths to mitigate risk and loss, to the detriment of the game. While it might seem like a great idea at first to make the richer characters in the game pay half a dozen rents in the game to 'spread the risk' of their places getting broken into, in reality, all this does is significantly harm the ability for up-and-coming players to get nice properties, or cheap properties for themselves. This already happens to an extent now with some of the cheaper apartments in the mix being used as loot dumps and safe-houses.

In summary: Hard pass. In fact, I'd swing towards nerfing the abilities of a few select skills that already enable this kind of gameplay (treating players as vending machines kind of gameplay) in favor of making the game more RP and conflict-based.

As someone who loves playing the type of character that would benefit from this being added, I still have to go with a hard no if you want my opinion. Everyone else here has already reflected my opinion as to why.

The caveat to that? If we could work a system that makes it possible only when a player is logged in. Maybe apartments with internal locks link to a character's sic chip - and drops a mag bolt when the player goes offline. Maybe within proximity. So you'd have to be in the room and logged out to protect you from being robbed while

Or, for those talking about the mix is too soft in another thread, just pay a premium in flash for that kind of security. You want surefire protection from B&E? The apartments 5k a week instead of 1.5. Something like that.

Again, just ideas if B&E is developed in, but I'm leaning toward nah.

Late to the show here but here but here are my two cents...

I do want B&E but I want it done in a way that helps prevent scenarios like Slither described. I especially like how this would give PCs an additional way to get at those PCs who piss them off then stay in their apartment for the next few weeks or months.

I'd start by making a property on door objects along the lines of:

If 0: No B&E is possible ever without GM colaboration

If 1: Allow Limited B&E (see below for limitations)

If 2: Allow Full B&E

I would set doors for where characters should live (apartments) to Limited B&E. This means that you can break into those doors only if the rooms beyond it are empty of PCs OR if the rooms beyond have PCs in them AND at least one of those PCs are connected.

This means that a player's apartment can only be broken into if nobody is in them thus left vulnerable (they are out playing or they just use it for storage) or if someone is in them AND logged in so they can react to the intrusion. Apartments would still be a safe place to log out in. It is also important that trying B&E on these doors always seem to result in success or fail without telling the players why to avoid them trying to gain meta knowledge.

I would set most every other door to Full B&E. This includes places of work and all that. Unless there is a very specific reason why the GMs don't want the door ever broken into, place it at Full B&E. Those that staff feel need to be locked down should be set to No B&E. No B&E doors give a message saying that they should contact staff to coordinate a break in attempt so the world can react properly.

I think with a system like this you can get close to having the best of both worlds. You can give PCs that path to pursue without players being freaked out about logging out for a week and coming back to an empty home. If anyone does break in to your place you were either out playing or choosing to leave it vulnerable (nobody in it). Or someone will be in there and awake to react.

Highly agree with Grey here, this allows you to fight off any intruders if they do try and bash in your door or hack your codelock.

I also think that if this does get added it should only be a super high tier so that not just anybody can break in, and should have a relatively long cooldown/use a disposable item so that if B&E does happen it should happen against a specific target and not some poor random immy trying to save up their crate earnings.

Also should have countermeasures in place, maybe you can buy civilian grade autoturrets, alarm security systems, deathrobot guards.

Also for different apartment buildings there could be innate security systems with the more expensive apartments having better protection like NPC guards that wouldn't hesitate to smash a baka's face in if they tried anything sussy to a door. Would definitely add more benefits to having a high end apartment.

Also big yes to a lot more breakable doors to non-apartment stuff, would be cool to run a heist on a business or corp or go in for big risk kidnap and ransom things.

Adding B&E as a way for people to target people they don't like is an awful idea. Cliques with extreme power will become even more powerful as they get to strip away the last place someone can rest without getting ganked. Let's not do that. Apartments as they are allow people to engage with the world on their own terms to avoid getting stomped by whoever happens to have the most power in the world at the moment.

Breaking and entering as a tool that players can use to break into places of work, corporate holdings, and other non-residential buildings is a good idea and I think it is essential if we want to encourage more topside crime and general interesting plots. Breaking and entering as a tool to crush specific characters into dust because they crossed you is just going to stagnate all conflict, because then nobody will be willing to challenge the status quo on pain of having absolutely nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, and no safety from just getting back-to-back vatted, raided like Sindome is a hit new survival multiplayer sandbox game, and generally given absolutely no recourse from the already stifling power gaps present in the game.

You also have the cuboids who sit in their apartments thinking that they're impenetrable fortresses though and I'm not sure if that'a a good way to act.
Letting people sit around and do nothing until they get slapped by staff for UE sponging is better than letting people become tyrants and raid everyone they don't like until they quit, go topside, or get DCD.
I believe B&E mechanics on player pads, regardless of how they were balanced, would still be viewed as hostile to the player experience and would discourage many players from playing at all.
Agree with with 0x1mm, even as someone who would like B&E. I think the playerbase would receive it negatively. That being said...

Wanted to address batko's post. Are we encouraging that players who get targeted by higher powers to lock themselves in their cube to avoid consequences? In what way is that beneficial for either parties who now can't RP anymore, the rest of the players, who are blocked off from the hiding out player, or staff who have to monitor the situation in case of leeching or other stuff?

'Letting people become tyrants...' People already are perfectly capable of perming you, ruining your life, job, faction, whatever with more or less complete impunity and all they need to do it is a relatively small playtime advantage over you to do it. B&E IS in the game already, it's just not done often because it's incredibly boring to do.

It's also worth thinking about that maybe people would be less 'pop in, instakill, pop out' if they didn't have to be. Now they can come to your home. Actually take the time to RP, maybe (god forbid) even give you a chance to save your life. Now they DON'T have to just kill you over and over until you're goo.

And all mechanics aside, there's always options. Run topside, move houses discretely (keep a safehouse?), hide out in the badlands for a bit, find one of the many hidey holes scattered throughout the game, change your identity, hell, maybe, just maybe, concede to the obviously overwhelmingly more powerful person? No, much better to sit in a cube for weeks barely playing or interacting with people until either of you gets bored and drops it.

This is a case of people being used to what's frankly an unrealistic level of protection and not wanting it taken away. Imagine if combat required OOC consent, and they were now changing it to not require that consent? The playerbase would react the same as they do to this, but Sindome with OOC consent before combat would be, in my opinion, completely pointless. What if someone frames me or does some stuff that completely ruins my character while I'm offline? How is it literally any different?

You want your home to be safe, take measures towards it. RP. The game gives you a million options in this regard already and would give you even more with B&E systems. People just want to roleplay living in a shack but not accept any of the consequences.

Wanted to address batko's post. Are we encouraging that players who get targeted by higher powers to lock themselves in their cube to avoid consequences? In what way is that beneficial for either parties who now can't RP anymore, the rest of the players, who are blocked off from the hiding out player, or staff who have to monitor the situation in case of leeching or other stuff?

Wild misinterpretation of what I said. At no point did I encourage people to never leave their apartments. I do encourage people, however, to use their apartments so that they can engage with the world at their own pace and on their own terms, leaving when it is more safe for them to do so rather than just never leave at all.

Again, I never advocated for people to hide in their apartments and never come out. I advocated for people to use the safety of their flats to engage with the outside world at their own pace. If they never leave their flat, they've already lost, so who cares?

Letting people become tyrants...' People already are perfectly capable of perming you, ruining your life, job, faction, whatever with more or less complete impunity and all they need to do it is a relatively small playtime advantage over you to do it. B&E IS in the game already, it's just not done often because it's incredibly boring to do.

It's also worth thinking about that maybe people would be less 'pop in, instakill, pop out' if they didn't have to be. Now they can come to your home. Actually take the time to RP, maybe (god forbid) even give you a chance to save your life. Now they DON'T have to just kill you over and over until you're goo.

Two arguments here, first that people are already capable of ruining your life and killing you and destroying you. So why do they need more tools to do so? If you removed the last place someone can breathe in the game, people would quit. Including me. Taking that away will completely homogenize the Mix and there would be no conflict, because the biggest and baddest would have destroyed their enemies last place they can exist without getting ganked.

Secondly, you assume a base level of altruism in a game where altruism is actively discouraged. Don't know what to say there. You think it will be used to spur conflict-ending RP and negotiation, I know it only be used as a way to completely demolish people who oppose the status quo.

And all mechanics aside, there's always options. Run topside, move houses discretely (keep a safehouse?), hide out in the badlands for a bit, find one of the many hidey holes scattered throughout the game, change your identity, hell, maybe, just maybe, concede to the obviously overwhelmingly more powerful person? No, much better to sit in a cube for weeks barely playing or interacting with people until either of you gets bored and drops it.

All I'm gathering from this is that you believe that any group with the highest aggregate UE should instantly win every conflict and that there shouldn't be any method for players to punch up without getting instantly evaporated every day they log in. 'Just run topside' or 'hide in the badlands' is just, as I said, homogenizing the Mix to the point of stagnating conflict. Keeping apartments and living spaces is almost impossible to keep secret on account of the limitations of playing a game where only a limited number of people are represented in a city where there should be millions. Conceding is exactly the issue here.

'Just simply do not ever get into conflict with people who are stronger than you' is an awful take and is representing all of what I hate about breaking and entering.

Well said, batko! Also, Sly, I wanted to address what you wrote:

Are we encouraging that players who get targeted by higher powers to lock themselves in their cube to avoid consequences? In what way is that beneficial for either parties who now can't RP anymore, the rest of the players, who are blocked off from the hiding out player, or staff who have to monitor the situation in case of leeching or other stuff?

You are waaaay overestimating the amount of "cuboids" there are among the player character population. I can only name one or two relevant PCs in the 3-4 years I've played SD that have -actually- been cuboids, people who just hide out in their apartments, soak up UE and stay safe from the elements. And these PCs got shit on for it ICly, big-time. Seriously, what makes you think that there are so many cuboids among the PC population? Every PC action in SD is a choice on the part of the player, in response to the world acting on them. Let's say there's a character who gets into big shit with a more powerful character. Would a cuboid be the type of character who provokes conflict, who punches up? Would a cuboid be the type of player to take this risk with their character?

Without revealing too much, my character was in a situation where a B&E event could have happened, had the mechanics been in place. She was terrified to leave her apartment, so what did she do? She RP'd. She reached out to the PC antagonizing her like a normal person, made concessions, cleared shit up. This all happened within a period of 2-3 days. But this RP never could have happened had her apartment been easily accessible to some high-UE solo with years invested in 'B&E' skill.

Why must you always assume the worst of the playerbase? No one wants to hide out in their apartment for multiple days, let alone weeks. I trust that if characters start doing that, staff will probably give them a little nudge. This is a game. Why ruin everyone else's fun just because you want to play SD on 'hard mode'? If you want the masochistic life for your character, never close their apartment door and pay some immy to guard the hallway. But don't suck all the fun out of the game for everyone else because holy shit, sometimes characters need to recoup their losses for a bit. Let the B&E happen because a character trusts the wrong person with their apartment code. Not because you want up-and-coming movers and shakers to never amount to anything because the old guard is always hiding under their bed and turning them to goo.

...I do encourage people, however, to use their apartments so that they can engage with the world at their own pace and on their own terms, leaving when it is more safe for them to do so rather than just never leave at all.

Which is a fancy way of saying leave the apartment when your would-be killer is offline. I don't have to explain on why this is basically the same as not leaving the apartment.

Two arguments here, first that people are already capable of ruining your life and killing you and destroying you. So why do they need more tools to do so? If you removed the last place someone can breathe in the game, people would quit...

Because if there are already tools for doing the same thing, more tools wouldn't change the game in any major way. If someone wanted me permed bad enough, and I just camped a cube most of the time, I'd still end up permed. It'd just take longer and be awful for everyone involved. I've seen this happen, many times.

And, most crucially, your cube ISN'T the last bastion of safety in the game. That's also what I'm getting at. There are plenty, PLENTY of safe areas and alternatives than just your own, specific pad, you just don't want to use them (because up until now, you haven't had to).

Secondly, you assume a base level of altruism in a game where altruism is actively discouraged.

In no way does the game discourage RP altruism. That is all the playerbase, and as I stated, there is no altruism SPECIFICALLY because of things like impenetrable cubes.

If someone can only kill you in the brief, tiny period you are vulnerable, of course they're not going to make a show about it. They're going to be brutal and quick, hence, shroud instakills.

All I'm gathering from this is that you believe that any group with the highest aggregate UE should instantly win every conflict and that there shouldn't be any method for players to punch up without getting instantly evaporated every day they log in.

In no way did I even suggest this. I said high UE players already win by a landslide, not that I liked it or encouraged it, and as such, additions such as this would not change the status quo one bit. And again, hiding in an impregnable cube and coming out when it's safe isn't a 'method of punching up'. It's not playing the game. A method to punch up would be a bodyguard, counter-assassination, blackmail, disguises, etc.

'Just simply do not ever get into conflict with people who are stronger than you' is an awful take and is representing all of what I hate about breaking and entering.

Also a completely made up statement. I said if you get into a conflict with people who are stronger than you, you SHOULD take measures to defend yourself, instead of hiding in an invulnerable bubble that makes no IC sense, or you will and should lose. You want to hide? There's a skill for it. There's IC places and other systems for it. Sitting in a cube is using your OOC knowledge to protect yourself IC. End of story.

Because if there are already tools for doing the same thing, more tools wouldn't change the game in any major way.

We both know this is categorically false. Breaking and entering would completely change the landscape of Sindome. I'm usually against doomsaying and freaking out about the theoreticals about a proposed change a la booting people from taxis, but this is one of those changes that would undeniably change the game. Mostly for the worst. You already acknowledged that a majority of the playerbase would abhor this change.

In no way did I even suggest this.

You did, though. You suggested conceding against those who are more powerful, which is exactly the issue with breaking and entering. It gives another tool to powerful players to squash their competition. If someone is leaving their apartment at all, they can be touched. And if they aren't leaving their apartment at all, and they aren't controlling or interacting with outward resources that you can hit instead of them, then they are UE sponging, which is against the rules. All this change would bring about is stronger players dominating a landscape that they already dominate, but now even more.

Also a completely made up statement. I said if you get into a conflict with people who are stronger than you, you SHOULD take measures to defend yourself, instead of hiding in an invulnerable bubble that makes no IC sense, or you will and should lose.

But you actually did encourage not going against more powerful players. You stated it matter-of-factly as that, actually, you should just concede against the more powerful people, that's the reasonable thing in this situation. I'm here to say that it's not reasonable.

Leaving your apartment when it's safe to do so is fine. If your enemy wants you dead even when they aren't around to do it themself, why not hire a solo who's in another timezone, or just put out a sweeping bounty? This is the same argument around hiring bodyguards.

I'm done arguing about this because I don't think you want to engage with the fact that this would just increase the already-massive power gap between established and unestablished characters in the game, and you already conceded that it would be a bad addition due to it being hostile to most players' tastes in the game anyways.

Understandable if we don't continue, god knows I've posted too much in this thread. As clarification I suggested conceding as one of the many options available to you, not that you should every single time. As for the players not liking it, yes, I did say that, but there are many other things integral to Sindome that if players were in charge, would not be in place. Even perming, I bet you a lot of players would prefer Sindome without it, and Sindome without permadeath would be basically an entirely different game, and not necessarily better.

The real sad irony of all this arguing is that B&E already exists. Worst of all, it doesn't take any tools or expenses or anything, and there are many PCs capable of it. It doesn't happen regularly because it has risks associated with it, like everything else in the game. Perhaps even more ironic is that I have used this stuff before SPECIFICALLY to fuck over people stronger/more connected than my PC at the time. And it worked. And (AFAIK) nobody even gave much of a shit, most of the time. Because getting inside someone's home doesn't suddenly mean you have access everywhere, or that you can't get caught, or that you can carry everything, or that the home/biz even has anything you'd want to take, or that any unique, truly valuable stuff I might've gotten is going to suddenly disappear from the game.

But apparently, a more robust, well-thought out system would suddenly mean all these high end PCs would start breaking into lowbies' homes and cleaning them out. I hate this random idea that is propagated constantly that high end PCs just run around stepping on people's necks because they can. They don't, and designing the game around this awful mistrust of players is incredibly limiting to the game's potential. If I didn't trust the players/staff as a whole (generally speaking) I wouldn't play the game.

I'd like to just point out that current methods of B&E require some specialization and does not lend itself well to actually killing anyone. A more robust system that allows people to open doors, unless limited in unrealistic and weird ways, would allow a whole squad of people to practically do home invasions.

That's the difference. A frankly huge difference.

Not only does current B&E usually happen with only a single robber, but initiating combat once inside is pretty much always an awful idea. Opening the door, literally, to multiple home invaders would make it a great idea, and also nullify the 'can you even carry everything' point, as well, for obvious reasons.

Safety mechanics (clones, resuscitation, private storage, et cetera) do not inhibit conflict, they encourage it.

If a player suddenly does not have any safety to fall back on, they will not continue to engage in conflict as before and simply capitulate when they lose, they will avoid conflict in the first place.

In general, the more risk a player perceives the more cautious they will be. If players believe they have no safe haven they will carefully avoid ever reaching the point at which they would need one.

There is a strong precedent for unrealistic but player-positive systems that give consideration to unavailable players despite character persistence, like sleeper protections and voiding uncontrolled characters.

All active players have effectively self-selected for their risk tolerance to the current state of the game. I think the introduction of disruptive new mechanics, which may significantly change the perception of that risk profile, could have negative impacts on player activity. Given the extremely niche potential player population to draw on, I think that is itself a risky proposition this late into development.

Newbie opinion incoming (and yes, I did read the entire thread first):

If I were to make a character with Secure Tech skills, I would absolutely want to be able to crack locks and break my way into shops, corp offices, etc. In fact, I was rather surprised to learn that such a mechanic and use for the skill does not already exist in this game. Not having it makes that skill rather disappointing, and much less attractive to pursue. No skill should have to be avoided because it lacks interesting use.

I also completely understand the reluctance to make apartments and other dwelling places breakable. A game like this absolutely needs safe spaces where you can leave the game behind and tend to real life without the stress of wondering what will happen to everything you spent your time on while you are away and can do nothing about it. That sort of situation would turn Sindome from a game to an obligation, and when that happens, people either quit or sacrifice their real life obligations and often their physical and mental well being over it. No game should ever encourage that.

So in general, I would be strongly in favor of allowing these mechanics for non-dwelling targets, but definitely implementing it for other spaces.

However, if there were ever plans/interest in allowing B&E on living spaces, I did have an idea that might work, as I think it would provide significant risk for the would-be burglar while limiting the damage they could do. But I'm still learning how things work here, so feel free to tell me the idea stinks. Here is how I would do it:

When a character first tries to "pick a lock" (for lack of a better term), they go into a queue of sorts, similar to a Mixer entering the queue in a Green-level mag-lev station. The character can leave this queue at any time, but they must remain in it to proceed. The queue will last a number of rounds, dependent upon the grade of the lock and the character's Secure Tech skill, after which they would either succeed at opening the lock, or fail and be unable to attempt that particular lock again for a hard-set timer.

If they succeed in opening the lock, they do not actually get to enter the apartment, nor do the instantly get to see everything that is in the apartment. In real life, finding out what is in a place takes time. So what happens is that the character enters another queue, again one which they can leave at any time (if they do, the attempt is over and the apartment is re-locked, and they can't try again for the same timer as if they failed to crack the lock). Every round that they remain in this queue, they will find one random item located in the apartment, and have the option of either taking the item or leaving it. This queue simulates the process of searching the room and attempting to find anything valuable. Perhaps there would be a limit on how many items could be taken before the session is automatically ended, maybe based on other skills. Perhaps finding an item each round is also chance based and skill or stat dependent (thievery? perception?), and there is a chance of not finding anything at all for a round, at which time the character would have to decide whether to keep looking or give up. Maybe items kept in secure containers have a lower chance of being found, or finding the container itself is a chance, after which the character would have to go into another lock-cracking queue to open it before getting at what is inside.

Now, here's the catch: every round that the character is in either queue, whether attempting to open the lock or searching the room, they have a chance of being discovered by NPCs. Maybe they trip an alarm, maybe a neighbor comes wandering down the hall while they're picking a lock, whatever; the bottom line is that the longer they stick around, the greater the chance of being caught in the act. Getting caught would provoke a response - it could be law enforcement coming to the scene, or if they're in parts of Red Sector that the WJF pays less attention to, it could be the local gang protecting its turf. Things like stealth skill could be used to lessen the chance of being discovered, but it needs to be balanced so that if a character sticks around long enough, eventually they will either have to flee or be caught and face consequences.

Are there complications with this? Sure; it might encourage hoarding, as the more items there are in a place, the longer it would take to search it and the greater the chance the burglar will just walk away with junk. It would be somewhat realistic though, as a place that is more cluttered with more stuff would take more time to search, especially if you're looking for something in particular. Are there opportunities for abuse? Yes; if you're looking to target one particular character, you could hire a bunch of burglars to go after their apartment, one after the other. But there could also be safeguards against this, such as not just limiting how often an individual character can attempt the same lock, but also limiting the frequency of any character's attempt - say once a lock has been tampered with, it puts systems on high alert for a while. I'm sure there are more flaws with this idea that others will point out, but those are just a few that come to mind.

Anyway, I'll repeat that my preference and expectation would be for B&E on non-residential targets, and no B&E on residences, but if it were added to residences, I think this idea could potentially work.

Off topic, but I really wish there were an "edit post" feature so I could fix my typos. :P
I realize that this thread is about a year old. Were any final decisions made?

I agree that personal dwellings should be off-limits for B&E. All of the many reasons raised for that were valid. Bleed is probably the most important one. People, players, need a way to "safely" disconnect and know that their character and their gear won't be messed with when they are offline.

B&E should be allowed for nearly all of Gold with maybe the exception of Hab-X given that it is a dwelling.

The new paydata / McGuffin system would be greatly enhanced with the additional of B&E. B&E would add another layer of challenge for corporations who need to protect their valuables.

There are already plenty of NPC and PC deterients on Gold who can respond to B&E attempts.

As for the actual mechanics of B&E, I can only reiterate what others have already suggested.

B&E should require multiple skills. I think that Auto Theft is a good example. I'm not a UE min-maxer, but the sense I get is that if a player wants to make their character "the best" at auto theft, they are going to have to invest considerable amounts of UE in multiple skills and abilities. The investment seems like it would be significant enough that they'd be effectively pigeon-holing themselves into that one niche. Auto Theft is also a good example because of all the tools involved. Stealing and re-selling vehicles is really a group effort, or at least a team effort. Requiring more than one person for high chyen reward activities is a good metric to align new features against.

It would be interesting if B&E could be setup to require both a Physical and a Grid presence. The Grid character would use something like Systems or Cracking. The Physical character would use something like SecureTech or ElectroTech. In both cases, the characters would need tools. A terminal for the Grid. Some sort of PRI / SHI device for the Physical.

Doors should have alarms available to them just like vehicles do.

The physical act of defeating the door should have forced @emotes so that other characters, NPCs, and surveillance devices can pick up on them.

Maybe a dependency could be setup so that any doors to be opened have to be wired to a security switchboard. The switchboard could be an alarm receiver. (Maybe the door itself doesn't alert, and so the intruder thinks everything is okay. Meanwhile, alarm klaxxons are going off in the security center.)

A Grid integrated security switchboard could become an entire system in and of itself. It could have its own "node" on the Grid. System operations and IC could have "real world" / on the switchboard effects. For example, if the decker messes up working on the door, a tamper indicator could show up on the console. The tamper could be cleared, but that might require a console operator with the right skill(s). Otherwise, they need to bring in a co-worker.

The switchboards are a bit of a tangent. B&E v1.0 can work without them.

I think B&E on Gold would be a major improvement to the game. It would give corpsec another thing to do. It would add another dynamic to McGuffins. It would be a good trial run in a fairly neutral setting.