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Acting like a big kid.
Civility. It's the new cool thing to do.

Hey guys,

I would say that in general I ignore the boards. I come here to RP a cyberpunk game, do biz, get killed, shoot stuff, etc. I really have a lot of fun ICly. Once in a while I scroll down the boards, dipping my toes into the OOC, and I find a lot of the boards are hit with the same problem by a handful of people, albeit a small minority.

It often times shakes out like:

Person A: Here's what I think.

Person B: You don't know what you're talking about. Shut up. Keep your ignorant thoughts to yourself.

Person A: Fuck YOU! You're the one who doesn't know shit, FUUUUCK YOU!

Then the thread basically devolves into a shit fit of mud slinging and the whole point of the idea or meme or whatever is gone, until some poor admin has to come and put everybody on time out.

Without trying to get too preachy, can I suggest that everyone who takes part in the boards do the following:

Write your post.

Take a breath.

Read your post to yourself.

Think to yourself, "Would I like to be spoken to like this?"

Edit the post to a point where the answer is "Yes, this seems like a respectful statement that I would enjoy reading."

Post.

If you can't write a post/response/etc. that isn't respectful, maybe just don't post. It's an internet forum, not a big deal, sorry to be so cliche but...can't we all just be friends?

I'll weigh in here as well. I like to 'assume best intentions'. And I'd like if everyone else did as well. More info on this here: https://medium.com/@BlairOutLoud/3-benefits-in-my-life-from-assuming-positive-intent-8c2024400d8 or just by Googling 'assume best intentions'. A lot of companies have a work culture of assuming best intentions, because a lot of the time, people are not communicating with us how we best communicate, and thus, misunderstandings occur.

An example: I spent 15 hours working on something. I show Johnny. Johnny critiques the heck out of it. I feel bad and not appreciated for my hard work.

On the surface, Johnny is being a jerk, but if you dig in to how he communicates and how he shows that he believes something has value, you will find that he shows it by seeking to improve it. When I realized that, and we talked about it, it changed our interactions. It wouldn't have been possible if I had just assumed he was being a jerk and hadn't engaged him on the topic and let him know my thoughts on it.

I know this isn't a perfect analogy for how we talk to each other on the BGBB or on OOC-Chat, but I think it carries a definitely message.

When someone posts something on the BGBB, I try to assume best intentions and see things from their point of view. This is made much easier when they provide reasons for why they think the way they think and offer constructive feedback.

That brings us to the next point I'd like to make. Constructive Feedback. Providing feedback in a constructive and understanding manner is key to being heard. If you want to get your point across and actually have the other person listen, being constructive is a good way to go about it. Otherwise, your message, the thing you came here to post, the thing you want to impart on others, is lost completely because those reading it are reacting to the tone of your message, possibly being insulted, and shutting down the part of them that was open to hearing what you had to say, because that's how most people deal with negative or destructive feedback.

We all have a varying amount of experience with the game. Some of us have been here a loooong time and have seen issues posted over and over that we have come to understand are not 'issues' but part of the game that we have grown accustomed to, or realized the importance of, over a long period of time. It can be frustrating to have the same conversations over and over and I think the gut reaction is to be like 'stfu already' but it's important for each of us to remember that the person making the suggestion, who may or may not be new, may not have seen those other conversations or heard the explanations by players or admin as to why something is the way it is. Point them to the BGBB posts that discuss it. Point them to the search bar to seek out related posts. Do it with grace and don't look to make them feel dumb for not having done that in the first place.

On top of all of that, please consider that the game today is not the game of 5 years ago. If something comes up over and over and over and over and over and over-- maybe it REALLY IS an issue that we need to address, and opening a new dialogue on it could be just the thing we need to do. That isn't always the case, but we've seen a LOT of things that we once said were the way there were for a reason, changed over time as the game grew, and our perceptions of what it needed grew with it.

There is no reason we can't take an extra 30 seconds to rewrite our posts so as to not insult or belittle whomever or whatever we are responding to. It's part of being a member of this community. It's part of growing the community. It's part of helping new and existing players grow as members of that community.

In the immortal words of Bill & Ted: Be excellent to each other.

Totes agree.
+1

(Slither said it all so well that I can't even add to it, but I feel like it's so important and hope everyone takes something out of it.)

I feel like a lot of people may not have seen this.

There's no reason people need to be rude to each other. I feel like maybe the people doing it, of whom there are 4-5 recently, don't realize they're doing it, which is probably why it's an issue to begin with.

It's pretty simple, though. Don't speak to other people in a way you wouldn't want to be spoken to.

Also on the agenda:

- If 5000 people tell you you're wrong, maybe consider for a moment that you might be wrong, not that they're attacking you and you need to counter-punch.

- The way you present your arguments can completely turn people off from the content of what you're saying.

+1
I'm just gonna echo what Crooknose said here: - The way you present your arguments can completely turn people off from the content of what you're saying.

I've seen some people try and give good arguments out for some things here in the forums but they come off as arrogant or asses, which makes nobody take them seriously and just devolves into not so productive times. I think everyone should re-read what they type a few times and make sure they're not coming off as such and just, come off productively. We're all friends here. At least OOCly.

These are all valid points and I feel like sometimes I am guilty of this, though it is not intentional. Anyone who knows me knows I am sarcastic and like to joke around, but I try not to go overboard OOC with being rude or out of hand. I feel like many people in our generation are to used to what I call "Internet talk". You know how people say things on the internet they would not say if you were standing right next to them? Though, some people will still say it..heh.

Where I see the clashes here is when people really want to express their Ideas, points of view, or complaint, they are not being open to counter views. Counter views balance out an argument. You might have overlooked a detail, you might be totally incorrect, you might not have experience with what you are suggesting or complaining about. Now, everyone be it an hour 1 player to head staff have something to contribute to Sindome. It is like life, everyone brings something different to a group. We have players posting who have been here 1-3 years, 3-5 years, 5-10, years, even 10-15+ years and all of them have a unique view of a slice of sindome. It is a good idea to hear why you might not be correct on something or why you may want to consider something else. What doesn't help (Yes, I've done it); Posting nothing but memes in response, posting dictionary definitions, taking subtle shots at someones character (Inserting their SIC alias into a cheap jab was a recent one), responding to anything they post with some snide comment because you don't like them ICly or OOCly, bandwagon trolling (Yeah, it can be hilarious, but maybe it is time to pump the brakes?)

I am not against side bar conversation happening in a thread because often times that side bar conversation helps someone see something from a different POV and clarifies something for them, or leads to a different angle of an idea etc, but let's try not to derail the train totally.

If we wanna roast each other we have OOC-Chat.

I'm gonna explain this here, mostly because it got referenced.

First off, to the involved party... Not naming to avoid bringing more attention to them or the event in question. Apologies, I got heated during that exchange. I got rightly told off for it by a lot of people. I'm trying to be calmer and more rational, and take the words of people like Slither to heart on these forums.

Second off, as I had to explain to staff that I legitimately didn't know they were who I was referencing until they smashed me that data over xhelp. That I made it as a reference to that character. Not as a reference to -their- character. Had a moment of panic about it when staff brought it up to me, because I normally don't care about who characters and players are. And I don't tend to collect that information.

I was also quick to provide staff with a list of the players who I did know off the top of my head definitively who their character(s) was( or were.) It could be counted on around one hand. Maybe one and a half. I also don't keep logs so I can't remember all of my responses here. I just remember being freaked out and feeling skeezed at myself, for the sheer fuckery that it must have looked like.

Third off, I appreciate the sense of levity and community in some places I've seen recently and I'm personally trying to be friendlier and less of a salt golem both on OOC and on the BGBB. I hope to continue these strides. However I do tend to do the shitty autism feature of tone matching. Where I will match the perceived tone of the conversation coming at me. I'm learning to monitor this, and come off more consistently pleasant or just not at all if I have nothing to contribute.

Fuck sorry for the novella.

I think it's really good to focus on positive interactions like this. I want to jump in here real quick on the topic of the ideas board. There's been a fair bit of memeing about the ideas board, and how it's a shitshow of sorts. Sure, there are some ideas that might be off the reservation, but there have also been some GREAT ones that have made it into the game. I think Slither touched earlier on how to respond to less-optimal ideas, but I want to say that there have been some really cool ideas that have been implemented.

Major props to players for coming up with cool suggestions, and mad props to the GMs and Admins/Coders for getting them into the game. It's really fun seeing an idea go into action and impact the game. I've never been a part of this process before.

Maybe we can all try to be a bit more nice to people who are suggesting something we perceive as old-hat, or a straight up bad idea.

And for people making ideas, please be aware that there will be responses to those ideas, as Grizzly said.

Where I see the clashes here is when people really want to express their Ideas, points of view, or complaint, they are not being open to counter views. Counter views balance out an argument. You might have overlooked a detail, you might be totally incorrect, you might not have experience with what you are suggesting or complaining about. Now, everyone be it an hour 1 player to head staff have something to contribute to Sindome. It is like life, everyone brings something different to a group. We have players posting who have been here 1-3 years, 3-5 years, 5-10, years, even 10-15+ years and all of them have a unique view of a slice of sindome. It is a good idea to hear why you might not be correct on something or why you may want to consider something else.

^ This says it all, thanks Grizzly.

If I could describe what I see happening that's causing people to get salty, it would be to say that we have a number of newer players (like, less than year of experience) who post ideas and then get very defensive, sometimes militantly defensive, when other players point out counter-arguments to their suggestion or try to give them advice on how to solve the issues they're having via IC means/making playstyle changes.

I've gotten the sense this defensiveness might be a reaction to perceived snarkiness on the part of people putting their two chy in, or being told that because they're new to the game their opinion hasn't been colored by the same experience as more seasoned players (which can easily sound like, you're new so your opinion doesn't matter).

Meanwhile the more experienced players trying to provide counter-arguments and point people in what they see as the right direction are likely getting frustrated at their time/energy being outright dismissed by the defensiveness of the original posters, causing them to up their own saltiness.

So! With that it mind, a few more things to consider/remember:

1. Lots of things on the ideas board do make it into the game. If people are providing counter-arguments, it's not to attack -you-, the poster. It's because they have concerns about your idea or wouldn't want to see it implemented in the form you've described and they want to add their voice to the equation, which is completely their right.

2. As Grizzly said, no matter who you are, from Mix Legend to day one immy, we should all remember that other people/other perspectives are capable of having valid points. None of us knows everything or is aware of everything. Even senior admin who know every in and out of the game don't always know how each individual feature is being played in the wild, which is why they source lots of opinions.

3. As soon as you attack someone, you kind of throw your argument out the window. That's all they'll see, and it may be all everyone else sees, too.

4. There's no one metric every idea gets judged by. You'll see people make arguments for realism, other people make arguments for game balance, other people make arguments for fun. I'm pretty sure ideas have been included in the game for all these reasons. There will be internal contradictions to all of them, as well. Some things in the game aren't realistic, other things aren't balanced (eg, not every skill is equally useful), other things aren't fun.

5. Perhaps most importantly, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I feel like most of the aggression we see is ultimately a response to people feeling like what they say/think isn't being valued. But like, just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean what you're offering isn't valued, it just means everyone has their own opinion, they don't always match, and the forums are specifically a place where opinions that don't match are going to come into contact with each other, so it's incumbent on everyone to be in a healthy mindset for that.

It's safe to say everyone's been at the newb stage, and some people here have been playing for double, triple, or quadruple the time I have played this game. When I was new and had no idea how things worked I also had some suggestions/found many things unfair and it can get frustrating, but it's just sometimes better to stop, think on what the experienced player said and go 'oh, maybe there IS a reason why things are like this, even if it doesn't benefit me'.

Also bear in mind there's something called internet personality like Grizzly said. I know some people are just sensitive and get offended easily but don't take every disagreement to your idea as a personal attack and then get frustrated and increase the heat even more.

I've noticed many instances of seasoned players misunderstanding what someone is saying which causes a huge 50-post spiral into things totally off-topic.

The vehicle thread is a good example of this. The initial topic was "auto mechanics need more RP opportunities" which spiraled into "we don't need vehicle theft to be any more powerful, just xhelp before stealing a vehicle" and caused a huge kerfuffle which was full of negativity and practically nothing on-topic. Crooknose and a few others tried to pull it back on topic but the thread had become so irredeemable that a new one had to be created.

This isn't a one-time instance. I've seen it happen plenty of times.

I think taking the time to understand the original idea would go far in making ideas threads a lot more productive and on-topic.