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Weapon bonus to grappling.

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I've found weapons, particularly knives and I think the same for swords to be unrewarding when a lucky grapple gets in from a brawler with significantly less skill and then you need to sit there for a couple minutes and wait to suffocate. Furthermore, being skilled in a weapon does not mean your clueless to grappling. (Side note: Northern Italian longsword combat revolved around grappling.) Talking to the GMs about this brought up the following idea for discussion:

For the sake of balance, instead of the bonus being from your skill it was mentioned that the weight of the weapon confer some sort of buff to breaking free from a grapple. The idea is not to challenge grapplers but give more of a fighting chance to players with higher combats stats than their opponent, but still do not have the strength to break free.

By Varolokkur at Dec 7, 2018 2:01 PM
That's the whole point of having those other skills though.
By HolyChrome at Dec 7, 2018 2:03 PM
This issus has always struck me as a bit odd, especially for knife-users.

Being put into a chokehold would not stop you from desperately stabbing your attacker in the kidneys to break free.

By pfh at Dec 7, 2018 2:08 PM
What I'm saying is you have character A who has trained for a year and has X amount of stats to avoid a grapple plus a bunch poured into other helpful non grappler combat stats/skills and is clearly the more experienced fighter. We will say both focus on one weapon type.

Character B is a 6 months old grappler focus and has only focused the stats to get A into a grapple if they are lucky. Suddenly A's other stats are pointless because as soon as they get in a grapple, chances are they are not getting out.

By Varolokkur at Dec 7, 2018 2:14 PM
I definitely think you should get some bonus to defending/breaking free from grappling if you're holding a weapon you're skilled with. It makes sense + doesn't diminish grappling's usefulness outside of active combat.
By waddlerafter at Dec 7, 2018 4:22 PM
I would love to breaking free from a grapple involve more non-strength factors. I know from experience that strength is seldom the prime factor that determines one's ability to maintain or break a hold - armed or not. I I would even go so far as to suggest that it isn't even the prime factor.

Of course this is a game and balance is needed so there might be a good reason not to make such changes. I would hate to invalidate an entire class of builds yet further so I get that careful balancing is needed - especially as what we have today is already a far more balanced system then we had years ago.

By Grey0 at Dec 8, 2018 2:23 AM
Frankly, I think this is silly. Agility is already basically a universal god stat of combat, improving movement speed, defense, offense, and a large number of skills that all contribute to setting the terms in a fight before its even began. In a head to head fight, a strength fighter SHOULD have the advantage, Equal UE invested. Thats his benefit. Raw, head to head power. Grappling is a real world and in-game way to say 'yeah, you're skilled. But this is a big fucker, and you need to be cautious going head to head with him.'
By Ash at Dec 8, 2018 3:10 PM
I am seeing a trend of ideas trying to apply an unreasonable amount of realism into combat in a text game.

We cannot balance all the potential real life combat scenarios, it's a game. Please try to consider that. :)

By Cerberus at Dec 8, 2018 3:13 PM
Actually, this argument for realism works in reverse, too. "I'm an experienced grappler, why am I letting some guy's wrists free to just stab me repeatedly?" But yeah, theres seriously no need to make agility-based characters able to no sell grapple attempts. They've already got a huge list of inherent advantages and utility.
By Ash at Dec 8, 2018 3:23 PM
There's three checks in a grapple. Can I see it coming? Can I evade it? If I get caught, can I out strength it?

Grappling is already a hard thing to accomplish against a well stated combatant.

By Cerberus at Dec 8, 2018 3:25 PM
If anything, grappling should be expanded upon for the grappler, allowing for throws or disarms while grappling someone. Also, expanding on the meat-shield idea by allowing someone to move while grappling in combat would be neat.

Aside from buffing grappling, I think its well implemented already and works just fine. Agility folks can simply dodge it, but if you get caught out, you're fucked as you should be.

By adamdenton930 at Dec 8, 2018 3:31 PM
Something like stances would be cool during grappling, if only to spice it up a little beyond a minute or so of pure choking.
By MongOfTheWeek at Dec 8, 2018 3:59 PM
@adam You can already do two of those things you suggested though. And AGI isn't the answer to everything.

By Necronex666 at Dec 8, 2018 4:23 PM
If you’re naked and you grapple someone is it a rule violation?

Asking for a friend.

Yeah.

By Grizzly666 at Dec 8, 2018 5:18 PM
No, but if they tell you they don't consent, you have to let them go, even fully clothed.
By Ash at Dec 8, 2018 5:19 PM
Well looks like we found the loophole....
By Grizzly666 at Dec 8, 2018 5:23 PM
My two cents...

This is probably too hard to code, but it seems like a grappler should have to disarm someone with a knife before grappling them. Otherwise they are in for a whole world of hurt.

Let me rephrase that. If the grappler does not disarm the knife wielder, they should risk getting stabbed, repeatedly. A person attempting to put someone else in a choke hold has given up trying to control the limbs, simply due to the mechanics involved in choking someone out.

I think that if you talk to anybody who has trained to defend themselves, it is almost universally acknowledged that a choke hold is one of the most dangerous moves out there. If you get locked into a choke hold, you have a few seconds to deal with it before you're out. On the flip side of the coin, it is extremely risky to put someone into a choke hold if you don't have full control of the situation e.g. They don't have friends around who are going to beat the snot out of you, they don't have a weapon, etc.

The choke hold is like the kamikaze attack of the unarmed world. If you don't land it, you're probably in a whole lot of trouble. And it's not usually something that you lead with, unless you have a huge strength and/or size advantage over your opponent.

By Hek at Dec 9, 2018 11:49 AM
I re-read Varlokkur's original post, and I have been thinking about weapons and grappling a bit more.

I cannot think of a weapon other than a knife (or nailz) that would be particularly useful when being grappled. Everything else is either too long to use effectively, or requires too much momentum to generate any real damage.

Just thinking out loud here as a newbie who knows next to nothing about game mechanics. I think it would be cool to give a couple of 'free' attacks to someone with a knife who is the target of a grapple. Maybe use the 'posture kamikaze' defensive penalty for the grappler to reflect the fact that they are putting everything that they have into choking the person out, and not necessarily defending themselves. Or maybe one step down from kamikaze to reflect the fact that the grappler technically has the upper hand / better position (being positioned behind the knife wielder).

I would think that pistols would also be useful in a similar, if slightly less effective manner. Again though, just pistols. Other projectile weapons are too unwieldy (long) to get on a target who is stuck to your back.

By Hek at Dec 9, 2018 3:43 PM
If this were the case you could just stack all your UE into your weapon skill (which is already more powerful than any unarmed skill) and ignore your other skills.

Overspecialize and you breed in weakness.

By Vera at Dec 9, 2018 3:45 PM
How so Vera?

(If this is too IC, please delete this reply. This seems like a grey area to me.)

If a person stacks their UE into a weapon skill, they're screwed if they get disarmed. If they focus on short_blades because it confers some minor bonus in grappling situations, they are still in trouble if they get disarmed.

Like you said, overspecialize and you breed in weakness.

When I was training, we were taught that if there is a weapon involved, that is your first and only priority. You are effectively fighting the weapon until it is no longer a factor.

By Hek at Dec 9, 2018 10:30 PM
When they train soldiers and police officers IRL they don't just hand them a gun and send them to the range. People who expect to see actual combat need to learn hand to hand techniques as well. This is some real-world common sense that applies just as well in Sindome.
By Vera at Dec 18, 2018 10:53 PM
Vera,

We are saying the same thing. People need to train with multiple weapons and hand to hand techniques.

I do not understand your original point though. You said that adding a weapon bonus to grappling would make people pour their UE into a weapon skill and ignore all others.

By Hek at Dec 19, 2018 2:46 PM
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