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[IMPORTANT] Ganger Roleplay Changes
What it means to be a ganger and the ganger code

Hey Everyone -

Some of you may have heard about this ICly, but a shift this big requires an OOC announcement as well. We are making some IC changes to the way gangs behave / work to make ganger life a bit more appealing to players. This was enacted ICly using some PCs and NPCs, but was an idea that was presented by a player, and iterated by the staff into what it is now.

GANGS

Gangs are a great new player job/role/experience. Gangs are a great newbie to middlebe experience. Gangs are a great way to learn the game, and grow as a role player. Gangs are VERY themely. Gangs are a proving ground for becoming a syndicate member, a solo, or some other next level character.

THE PROBLEM

Gang fights with PCs and NPCs result in gangers dying a LOT. It's costly, results in an overabundance of perms, and becomes frustrating. It's a meat grinder that once entered, is hard to leave. The core of ganger RP is rivalries with the other gangs, but those rivalries often degrade into situations of little RP, people hiding in cubes to avoid being neck snapped in a fight, and a bunch of other things that reduce the amount of RP gangers actively get to engage in. Given there are so many newbies in gangs (or at least we want there to be), and given that a single well geared middlebe can take on a group of newbies, it's really hard to balance the gangs, to make an interesting and compelling experience, and to keep things fair and fun.

THE SOLUTION

We've enacted an IC solution to this in the form of a 'ganger code' that all the NPC run gangs have agreed to. The code, OOCly, is intended to prevent ganger PCs from constantly dying or getting frustrated OOCly with the role. If every ganger always kills every other ganger they fight with, and they fight, and the role of ganger is defined by fighting, it's not great for RP.

Instead, gangs will be encouraged to simply beat each other down in fights and then rob each other. Showing their dominance not by killing, but through actual dominance and strength. This means that proper planning, role play and other things will be required instead of it just being a meat grinder all the time.

There are plenty of IC reasons for this to happen, of which, you can discover ICly. OOCly though, there are many benefits.

THE REASONING

1. It allows us to have a finger grain macro control over the ganger RP by allowing us to bring members of different gangs together for RP on a more regular basis through ganger diplomacy, turf wars that aren't murder fests, and a ganger council that can act as an overseeing body over all the gangs.

2. We can have characters from different gangs have to RP with each other to accomplish 'jobs' the ganger council accepts.

3. Balance. If one gang steps out of line, the other gangs can bang them back into line.

4. Proving grounds. The gangs have always been intended to be a proving ground for PCs that want to become Solos or Syndicate members. This doesn't often get a chance to happen because gangers are typically very short lived, or leave the gangs quickly due to OOC frustration.

5. Imbalances in gang membership are less of an issue. Think about this: 1 gang with 4 PC members, those 4 pcs get lots of RP with each other and it's great. But what about the other gangs that have 0 or 1 PC members. It's boring for the 1 PC member of this other gang, and also unfair since they have to go up against this other gang that has 4 PCs planning the 1 PCs death. We could put 1 member in every gang and slowly work up to 2 members but that's still boring for the 1-2 members that don't have anyone to RP with or plot against. This allows us to have less balance while still allowing it to be fun for those who aren't balanced, since they aren't waking up at Genetek every time they leave their cube.

6. This doesn't mean no deaths. Gangers can still plot to kill other gangers, they just have to be more crafty about it and be ware the council because if caught there will be repercussions. It also means accidental kills in combat have to be RPed. Do you get the resuscitated? Do you lie? Do you cover it up?

7. Higher gang membership. We're hoping that this change makes the gangs more viable as a character path and that we can get a lot more people into the various gangs.

8. TERRA. Terra also signed the agreement. This means that TERRA Agents (arguably the most dangerous job in the Mix) are not going to be killed on sight. They might get beat down like any other gangers but they won't be killed every day, and people can work at becoming Judges or Corpsec through TERRA. They can also become corrupt, and that is awesome.

9. Syndicates. Syndicate RP is fun. Ganger RP is fun. They are on different levels though. They shouldn't overlap. Not much anyway. This helps us to give an IC reason for why syndicates and gangs do not interact much. It's just too easy for a syndicate member to get an entire gang to go after a rival or for a gang to hire a syndicate to go after a rival. This prevents that in an IC way, bringing more balance to the game.

10. Neutral places. The Drome has always been neutral but now in general, bars/clubs will be neutral and fighting will take place outside them. That means that gangers can go out, shit talk, and enjoy their role, but also be fairly confident that they won't get mobbed by a rival gang and killed just for going out and RPing. It let's the RP be compartmentalized so that if you're in the mood to go get into a gang fight you can, but also, you can just go handle some biz at a bar and meet new characters and plot and plan and enjoy your RP experience while being super themely and fun.

11. RP. This means more RP. It means shit talking and fighting and challenges, and coming up with interesting ways to fuck over your rival gangers.

EXPERIMENTAL

This is an experiment. It might fail. If it does, it's easy to have the gangs go back to the way they were. We're hoping it succeeds though, or that it leads to problems we can address IC, and grow from.

Questions?

-- S

THANK YOU
This is a great idea! Hope it ends up working out, as I feel that gang RP over my time playing this game has been very slanted toward certain gangs and I hope this helps even that out.
Love this, to be honest. This is amazing.
By joining a gang, is this considered like a regular job that gets weekly pay like the other jobs, or is this like a gig?

Thank you, I really like the idea a lot.

This sounds good. I hope it makes it easier for non-criminal players in the mix to survive in general, if more people feel safe to join TERRA and actually protect innocents more actively, without being shot down by gangers.
@Scarlyt Find out in character :)
@Evie TERRA isn't about protecting innocents :)
Don't mistake not killing people needlessly and senselessly for a free pass to interfere with people's RP as TERRA. You do something that is in the face of other people's interests and against their character, you're starting something that could end up resulting in your death, you never know. TERRA's role has always been Observe and Report, this doesn't let them go in and enforce the Law in the Mix.
Back in the day TERRA used to beat you down and throw you in a holding cell for the WJF to come fine you, and serve as backup for the WJF in the mix *shrug*

Buuuuuuuuuut very rarely did anyone play TERRA too...

Gang banging isn't all about just killing your rival in the other gang. There are many elements to it like drug dealing, strong arm robberies (ROBBERY NOT MURDER LOOTS), petty crimes, etc etc. The big gang brawls should just be a here and there event. More gang members is a good thing. More TERRA is a good thing.

Hi there,

While a new player here, I'd like to draw a parallel to RL gangs, and why they rarely kill one another - it's bad business. Sure, blues could always go to the reds turf and kill some reds, but then the blues will do the same. The result of that is that both gangs lost members, got customers who are afraid to come to their turf to buy stuff so no one benefits from it in the end. Which is why wars are rare, but when they happen they are decisive, surgical and to the death of one side.

Not sure how that aligns with how they are now, as I've mentioned I am a new player, but giving them some sort of turf to fight over, that they can split, fight over and have actual benefit from, would be pretty kickass, and would allow for stuff like peace, border friction and so on.

I like these changes overall because I knew that gangs were supposed to be for low-midend PCs, and so was TERRA. It's kind of hard to maintain a role in them - especially in Red - when it was a deathfest for gang PCs and TERRA PCs. Add in the fact that you're a new/mid-end PC, you had yourself a problem.

I quite enjoy the 'tier' system that is set-up and I think these changes will allow players to involve themselves in these kind of RPs without fear of being permed or dying over and over as their new characters. I think it'll succeed.

But TERRA are the only ones mixers can go to when crime goes down, as WJF won't go down to Red for shit like murder.
This change makes perfect sense seeing as the Crips and Bloods of LA signed a similar treaty in 1992 following the LA riots.

TERRA are there observe and report. They aren't Judges. They aren't supposed to enforce the Law, or judge people, or anything.

They're the eyes and ears of the Judges, they aren't supposed to be a direct response force.

I am personally very excited to see how this works out. And I think it has the potential to enhance the ganger theme and feel.

Gangs like the ones we have in SD commonly start as groups trying to protect their neighborhood - their turf - because crime is rampant and no one else seems to care. To do that they need money and power. So they turn to crime to earn flash - flash they take from other turfs/gangs so they can protect themselves from other gangs doing the exact same thing. This grows into a viscous cycle and a very rich RP environment in my opinion. You have people acting like crooked cops on their own turf and straight up criminals everywhere else.

Also, Gangers posture a LOT. They get in each others' faces. The talk smack. They scrap. But when one gang kills someone from another gang, it's a big damn deal. That's where headlines start. Retribution happens. You can't get this kind of story when it's a constant slaughter fest 24/7.

And gangs have never been one to cooperate with the system. They hate it more then they hate each other. So I can see why they might take measures to avoid feeding them more flash and uniting to act against the system as needed. I would love to see the mix act overtly against topside more often and gangs can and should be a vehicle for that.

In all I'm excited and really hope to see more players give gangs a go. They are all very rich and awesome in their own way. If this helps make that happen and up the amount of PvP, I'm all for it.

I want to caution people into thinking the Theme allow for gangs to rise up and be a significant force against the Corporations. To put a perspective on this, New Light Media has behind it a private military that would rival probably the modern day Russian or United States military industrial complex.

The mega-corporations are UN recognized corporate states and even a union of gangs isn't going to take anything from them. Harassment, grabbing corpies in the Mix or on the Lev, or shit like that is a lot different than rising up and forcing the Corporations and the Judges to go full militant in response.

We need to be careful with what we allow ourselves to try to do with things at time so we can respond appropriately with the theme.

Just because Joe Baka at NLM CorpSec has 500 UE and is dumb, doesn't mean NLM CorpSec isn't backed by one of the most powerful corporate-states in the solar system, scan?

Hopefully this helps with perspective.

Perspective wise, this is a group of street thugs (albeit some of them very skilled ones) creating a small force in a small sector of a city. Yes, they have an agenda against the corporations. But even if assumedly the ambient members of these gangs all got together, I doubt they'd even rival the number of NLM employees in Central, let alone all the corporation towers in the zone.
Heh... I was referring more to harassment and small actions. Not going head on.
This sounds amazing.
I think in general killing people is less interesting on both sides than anything else you can do to them. That's an age old debate but hopefully this gets people used to the idea of holding back just a bit in general.
This sounds exciting!

This sounds exciting!

@MrFye That's actually what we pulled some of the wording for the IC code from :)
I also feel like it needs to be straight out said. These changes are SPECIFIC to the Gang experience. They do not govern solos, Judges, syndicates, or any other type of role. It's game-play specifically for the gangs and those that participate in gang related RP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGo5bxWy21g
Now I wish my Ganger character had stuck around for a little longer.
I really like this idea but I'm old hat. I'd rather see us fostering newbie growth but leaving midbie's largely at risk and instead find ways to work gangers into the player economy more. I've composed the below half-thought out rant of ideas/suggestions for your amusement. Enjoy.

Eliminate or Move the Fuller Street Snakes You want RP and you want a safe zone. Those of us who have been around long enough may recall a time prior to the Snakes when that was Fuller Street. Was it contested and dangerous? Hell yes. However, no one owned it as turf though. This meant small time gangs could work petty crimes on it, Bigger Gangs could fight over it, TERRA could try to protect it, and all while fostering a flexible environment of RP. IMHO This is the reason why the informal “union” with Fuller Street businesses existed and NPC’s like Hookie and Old Man Thompson were such bastards.

No ganger treaty Gangers not killing gangers doesn’t do anything but nurture an environment of safety for midbies to grow old. If that’s what you want to do, go corporate or hide in your cube. There’s trade-offs but that’s one of the things topside life is really great for. What’s even worse is this now effectively gives midbies an army of NPC support without any trade-off of consequences.

Foster newbie growth Gangers are the real immy greeters not WCS. If your idea of welcoming a immy is choking them out and shoving them in a dumpster with little to no RP because you’re a ganger - you’re the problem. DO ALL THOSE THINGS BUT DO THEM WITH STYLE. We want new players to write reviews how they got the shit kicked out of them, there kidney ripped out, and it was the best time they ever had. Not that they were rofl stomp’d into oblivion three times by three different players in five minutes without so much as a hello.

Employ and support newbie gangers The real problem I see this trying to solve is clone deaths and DCD for new gangers. How do we fix that? I don’t think there should be free clones because hustling for clone chyen plus there elder gangers should be able to front them chyen with there ill-gotten gains. As for DCD, I think a “Mixer-Perk” of “Lab Rat - Free DCD Treatment” would be a suitable way to mitigate the risk of hella death. Yes, you died and lost all your gear...but you’re not melting into a puddle. PC Gangers should also really be taking the time to train newbie’s on combat.

Create and Foster a Ganger Economy. Why do gangers stand around all day? To protect their turf and business on it, right? There’s currently no reward or penalty structure for this though. So instead we just have Ganger Bob marching up and down the street doing nothing but heckling the occasional immy and beating up a mugger or dip. I think there should be a merit system for each gang based on the following…

Muggings/Violence on there turf that wasn’t mitigated by said Gang.

Failed/Successful Package deliveries to the businesses on their turf.

Number of Drug (and other need anything) Deals with Ganger’s on their turf.

The merit system would affect potential payouts from protections fees and whatever else belongs in the ganger support structure. This same merit system could also be used to track and reward Terra and CorpSec if implemented properly.

As for syndicates, there should no -combat- interaction between gangs and syndicate members. However, pushing good and working the merit system to a syndicates advantage should happen by design and create weird dotted lines. This has always been complicated so I grapple with this the most.

Thoughts?

Eliminate or Move the Fuller Street Snakes:

I don't think adding "safe no-man lands" in Red is a good idea for the sake of theme. The Snakes have been there for years and they are as themely as Sinners or Arteries. If you want neutral grounds, well, those do exist. I'm thinking the branched streets: Gibson, Beretta, Klobb, Death Row, are all good places where small time gangs can work petty crimes.

No ganger treaty Gangers not killing gangers doesn’t do anything but nurture an environment of safety for midbies to grow old.

The treaty doesn't mean Red is a safe place, it just means that gangers can not kill other gangers for gang related reasons. That's the end of massive gang wars that yield a pile of corpses. I don't think it's particularly giving midbie an OP resource (army of NPC support) considering the rules there are in place for when you want to use said NPCs. It's no different than joining the WJF and having all the Judges in your side. Pick the strongest side and you shall prevail...

Foster newbie growth Gangers are the real immy greeters not WCS. If your idea of welcoming a immy is choking them out and shoving them in a dumpster with little to no RP because you’re a ganger - you’re the problem.

Fully agreed.

Employ and support newbie gangers The real problem I see this trying to solve is clone deaths and DCD for new gangers.

I think this treaty is fixing exactly this. Gang enviroment used to be ruthless and deadly as well as extremely expensive in terms of DCD fees and clone money, this meant that newbies and midbies that couldn't measure the consequences of their conflictive actions ended up getting permed or just plain quit the game because let's be fair, it's shitty to die day after day just because you want to get involved in cool ganger RP. Plus, adding a Mixer-Perk with DCD treatment cannot be possibly explained from an IC themely point of view without breaking immersion.

Fully agree with all your points regarding syndicate/ganger interaction and promoting ganger economy.

Not to mention that this is not really an OOC rule, you could still kill a ganger if they deserve it and get away with it if there are no eyewitnesses and you aren't caught red handed. It's all treated ICly. There just happens to be an universal standard from a themely point of view to help newbies and midbies get involved.
Eliminate or Move the Fuller Street Snakes

I also like the idea of having more unregulated prime real estate. Even those side roads are technically claimed by a gang. There really isn't much space to play in that isn't gang owned and regulated. I remember frequently feeling stifled and like there was not really much room for me to bring my own creation into the game.

Foster newbie growth

Mostly agreed. A lot depends on the situation. If a ganger runs into an immy the RP can range from friendly advice to intimidation to a job offer to chocking them out and leaving the in the dumpster. It largely depends on the actions of the immy and others in the scene as well as the personality of the ganger (not all gangers are the same).

And to be honest, one of my best immy memories was me getting my ass beat to exhaustion and left on the street. If forced me to reach out and connect with other players and started my character on a path for revenge. Gave them a goal. Your mileage may vary.

And teaching doesn't happen all at once. In most of my experiences it's a process in which you pass on a little at a time. The first meeting you might learn about disarming. The second you might learn that you can frisk people and how grapple and frisk interact. The third you might learn the name of one of the other Gangers. In the fourth you might learn that this particular biz is protected by that particular gang.

It's this continued thread of interaction that results in the immy learning more and more as time goes by. I've never been a fan of the three hour data dump but that just might be my own preference.

Employ and support newbie gangers

This has a lot of angles in my opinion. If you only have one PC ganger then the traditional ganger economy kind of breaks down. Gangers in the past made a lot of flash by taking things from rival gangs. But if you have just one PC ganger then any attempt to do this (unless you are a dip) needs GM involvement. And even when you are lucky enough to get some GM time, you are usually in a one against them all scenario and lucky to leave with your life let alone anything of value.

To get the economy rolling in the old style you need at least one PC ganger in at least two different gangs. Ideally you'd have a few in each gang. Then you have targets that you can go after that don't involve as large of a drain to GM resources and fun PvP action. But even then Clones and DCD costs will add up if you are creasing each other non-stop.

And getting people to join gangs is not easy. Some have no interest and most aren't willing to put the time and work in. As discussed in other posts, joining a gang is harder and more time consuming then getting a job at a corp or bar. And it's this challenging period where you are making enemies of the other gangs while not yet having the backup of your gang. And if your bid fails you just might have alienated yourself against a good part of the mix. I get why it is how it is but I also know that it has turned at least a few characters away from joining a gang. Plus the fact that you (historically) die so often might be off putting as mentioned before.

Or you could try something new. Like this code. Something that makes gangs more enticing and provides a way to maximize the impact GM time spent on gangs has by providing scenarios in which PC gangers of different gangs might work together against a common enemy.

And I would love to see more ganger tasks/jobs that go beyond, "Beat up those other gangers and that their stuff." A lot of the ideas Reefer threw out are awesome.

I think Reefer has valid concerns about it.

Some thoughts I had after reading what he had to say, was that a lot of what has been put out there thus far could use a little clarity as some of us may be getting mixed messages.

For example, If I icly don't like the treaty because I prefer a mix in chaos. I oocly like how the gangs are finally being given some structure to foster players in. I mention this, and I am told that as someone where I am, I should consider the gangs below me, and all that jazz. The confusion sets in when Sydnicates overlap with gang business. It should. It really doesn't often due to lack of players in the syndicates/gangs, but I see nothing wrong with being a syndicate member and hiring out some ganger to do a small potatoes job I don't feel like exposing myself on. I think the way things were worded kinda gives me the perception that syndicate members shouldn't even interact with gangers aside from pleasantries. Did I simply misunderstand the intent? In the case where business overlaps, you kinda need to keep an eye on gang politics.

Gangs have always been hard. I have had characters in each of the three major gangs. Once, there was an uber alt in another gang, and they would kill me all the time because that was the definition of gang rp. I think with the effort to stabilize and revive this faucet of play, then you can't stop at a treaty. You gotta also keep it going with the gang economy. New gangers should have a GM take them under their wing as a NPC ganger puppet showing these new gits how to be, so that they can pass it along and allow the GM to take a step back from it. There should be tiers of "gang jobs" within the gang. Make some of the gangs known to specialize in a product. For example: The Sinners deal basic quality mrc. New Joeboy Sinner goes to the Sinner NPC that heads it up, and asks for a front of Mrc to sell. New Joeboy should first get a crash course in drug dealing, but also get fronted some drugs and have to come back with a chy amount to pay back and enough for him to profit from. It's easy. Any GM can slide to the gear room and pop up a batch and give it to the sinner. You can have a gang known for selling seburo's. One for Vee. the list goes on, and that's just wheeling and dealing. Collecting protection rackets, dealing with those who won't pay, a crash course in who is who in the underworld and who not to fuck with, all of these things offer a distinct advantage to anyone as it provides chyen in their pocket, and valuable IC/OOC information to help them succeed in the game.

My big complaint when I was a ganger was the lack of GM guidance. I get it, SD is not for a handful of people to soak up all of the GM attention, but if you want to foster newer to mid level characters in the Gangs, but being told something general by your gang boss, or "Go spraypaint GANG turf somewhere" isn't much incentive wise to stay in a gang.

Gangers should run the mix in the naked guy.

Syndicates should run the mix behind the scene, imho.

Gangs are entry level jobs for all intents and purposes and a place where we want newbies. Being a higher up in a gang is a role for someone who is on the younger side of middlebe. There are limited amounts of these roles. As your progress to 1-2 years old, it's time to move out of the gangs because we cannot support your bad ass uber character in a system that is designed to allow new characters to prosper. One middle be can wipe the floor with 10 newbies all at the same time, simply by using strategy and better weapons.

Syndicates will try to poach gang members that get their attention, at a certain point, like I mentioned in my previous post.

We aren't making it so gangers can't kill normal mixers. Nothing has changed there. We aren't making it so gangers can't kill each other. It just requires more planning and thought.

We are moving the 'ganger' role from 'all we do is kill the other gangs or die to the other gangs' to 'we spend a lot of our time fighting but that's fine, we don't die every day, and we aren't scared to go out on OUR OWN TURF because some middle be from the Sinners is going to walk down the street ghosting everyone they see because it's what is considered themely'.

-- S

I understand the concerns put forward, but they're coming from the perspective of roleplay that has resulted in a a gross amount of time perming other players and getting other immigrants permed outright through the RP which is in part why we have to do this treaty from an OOC perspective.

It's proven that you cannot be a gang that just murders everyone because your gang goes from 5 members to 0 members in a matter of a week or two.

You want to start your own gang and rise up and actually be something people recognize? Follow the treaty and survive, else you get wiped out like it's been showcased over the past month.

That's not doing anyone any good. It's not improving the experience or keeping new players. The constant robbing of immigrants at ACME has been out of control because we have no TERRA, because alls they do is die.

Immigrants quit the game because they can't earn money, while we expect this to happen in the Mix it started happening constantly, making it unsustainable, making it so people cannot even BEGIN to learn the game.

GMs don't have time to puppet TERRA and protect ACME routes and stuff all the time, and we cannot do anything with TERRA PCs if they get permed all the time.

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but surely you see how unsustainable that is, especially as a new player experience.

It's not improving the experience or keeping new players. The constant robbing of immigrants at ACME has been out of control because we have no TERRA, because alls they do is die.

Immigrants quit the game because they can't earn money, while we expect this to happen in the Mix it started happening constantly, making it unsustainable, making it so people cannot even BEGIN to learn the game.

GMs don't have time to puppet TERRA and protect ACME routes and stuff all the time, and we cannot do anything with TERRA PCs if they get permed all the time

This is precisely why a Ganger/Terra Economy focused around package delivery, drug trade, protection rackets, etc. would be hugely beneficial. It relies less on GM's and more on player grouping up together. Gangers will want to make sure packages are delivered because there is a direct correlation to there income. They will want to make sure no one dips or mugs people. It also gives the opportunity for outliers to exist who take advantage of people who play by the rules/treaty.

Is the idea of Terra/Ganger's shepherding immy package deliveries amongst other things on there turf really such a difficult concept? I recognize no or at least very few PC's took this initiative in the wake of the would-be mugging spree but it's not that hard to group up.

Gangs aren't gangs because they all wear the same color or have matching tattoos. Gangs are gangs because they have aligned interests. Give me people a reason to align besides stomping there guts in with NPC's and Oldbie's - I think it will take the game much farther.

There will be and are not any oldbies in any gangs. This is a new player and midbie experience.

The treaty accomplishes everything you've said if you can get over the no killing part.

Also, I want to reiterate that this is just an experiment. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Most likely, it will work in some ways, and in the ways it doesn't work, we will iterate as we gather more info and identify issues or places things are/are not getting traction.
I'm wary of anything dubbed an experiment when the variable is dealt with by having the control hammer it with IC consequences. Square pegs being shoved into round holes doesn't really leave room for interpretation or adaptation. To be fair, maybe I'm just butt hurt and I will continue to offer my hopefully constructive criticism if it is welcomed.
"Gangs are entry level jobs for all intents and purposes and a place where we want newbies. Being a higher up in a gang is a role for someone who is on the younger side of middlebe. There are limited amounts of these roles. As your progress to 1-2 years old, it's time to move out of the gangs because we cannot support your bad ass uber character in a system that is designed to allow new characters to prosper. One middle be can wipe the floor with 10 newbies all at the same time, simply by using strategy and better weapons."

Does this paragraph apply to the general creation of gangs as well?

I don't know why people think you can just go out and create a gang. A player has done it once, when the game population was like 10-15 people maybe less.

Can we please all understand and acknowledge the vast differences between 15 years ago and 2018?

We don't want people to stop trying to form their own gangs, but you've got a LOT of work cut out for you if you want to actually be recognized as a established gang. There's a big difference between the PCs thinking you're a gang, and the NPC world respecting you on that level. NPC gangs are hundreds strong, PC gangs don't measure up to this in any way unless we give you NPCs and give you turf.

And right now, the code Slither wants for taking of turf and such is a long ways away.

And I am starting to lean toward the criticism being alarmist more than constructive so let's wait and see how it goes.

Thank you for this post.

As a brand new player, I have honestly not wanted much of anything to do with the gangs. I was not aware of the gang code, and my perception of the gangs was exactly what the gang code is trying to address. e.g. Being a ganger is a quick route to perma-death, there's no point in joining anything other than the biggest gang, and that there are plenty of 'older' characters out there who you stand no chance against.

because let's be fair, it's shitty to die day after day just because you want to get involved in cool ganger RP

Who'd have thought.

I wanted to check back in on this and add that as a result of the item cost changes I've seen a LOT of people getting into fixing and flipping items. As a result if feels like a lot more Chyen is flowing, which I am happy to dump on immies for a variety of things that I wouldn't otherwise be able to afford. I've never been in a gang but so far this change has been massively cool for the lower-tier players as far as I can tell.

I even heard a few immies talking about flipping things and bitching about how they got shorted by the fixer, then musing about how they need to demand a bigger cut. It really feels like this change juiced up the economy in a very cool way. Just wanted to relay that feedback.