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Why doesn't everyone drive?
is this a case of overbalance?

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I've noticed that driving in sindome seems to be a very task specific thing. I very rarely see people driving by, often everyone is on foot. It seems like outside of going between levels vehicles themselves don't see use.

I personally think this is a bit of an issue mechanically, as it means that vehicles lack general utility, or that the balance mechanisms themselves overwhelm the utility of the vehicles.

One of the balance mechanisms of vehicles doesn't even provide for RP, which is another problem. Though I can't speak personally to how detrimental to people being on the road that is.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this subject?

By RedSteelButterfly at Sep 12, 2019 10:16 AM

Q; Why doesn’t everyone drive?

A; I don’t have a quarter mill for a car.

I hope this helps 😉

By Grizzly666 at Sep 12, 2019 10:20 AM

Grizzly,

But bikes exists? Are bikes lacking in utility then?

By RedSteelButterfly at Sep 12, 2019 10:27 AM

Vehicles are highly mechanically useful, just most players are poor.

Not really sure what the question here is.

By 0x1mm at Sep 12, 2019 10:34 AM

I trip over people on bikes. Maybe it’s a perception issue?

If everyone is driving then you are also inhibiting cab and skyfox employees.

By Grizzly666 at Sep 12, 2019 10:38 AM

Unless the policies changed while I was gone vehicles aren't really relevant for much besides cross-sector travel and as status symbols.

IMO their primary use should be as getaway vehicles for Crime Stuff but I don't think the staff share this philosophy.

By waddlerafter at Sep 12, 2019 10:41 AM

People drive. Many characters are poor or are idiot savants with katanas who don't know how to cook or dress themselves.

By Vera at Sep 12, 2019 10:59 AM

Withmore is a MEGA city.

A LOT of people in big cities don't drive. It's extra-expensive to own / park / etc. a car in big cities, and public transit makes it far less required than living in other places.

Most people who own cars / learn to drive do so because they kinda have to.

By Jameson at Sep 12, 2019 11:18 AM

Theme aside, my perception (as incorrect as it may be!) is that I never see people driving. Vehicles are a major game mechanic that I do not see people using, nor does it provide for as much RP as the coded system seems able to provide.

I feel like there's some sort of negative feedback loop here that prevents them from being used and I would like everyone to chime in on all the possibilities!

Cost is surely a factor, so perhaps introducing a super cheap scooter for people to use would be an option (Also themely, as I see those dang things zipping around the city all the time IRL)

By RedSteelButterfly at Sep 12, 2019 11:32 AM

I don't see the reasoning. There are a ton of mechanics, some incredibly powerful, gated behind cost and accessibility. Basic vehicles are not that expensive, players are just, as a rule, terrible at managing their resources.

By 0x1mm at Sep 12, 2019 11:36 AM

So if it's not the cost of vehicles, why don't they see more common use? Without getting into IC specifics, what are some things you've used a vehicle for, or what are some things you would like to use a vehicle for but don't? And why?

By RedSteelButterfly at Sep 12, 2019 12:10 PM

Just go play sindome cars are fine.

By Vera at Sep 12, 2019 12:28 PM

I see plenty of players driving and even more wanting to drive, just not able to afford it. It's a matter of perception. Having a bike is a massive game changes to almost any character.

By Marleen at Sep 12, 2019 12:28 PM

Vehicle use requires a skill to operate. Like swords, or guns, cars and bikes require a skill to operate effectively. That reason alone prevents a large margin of drivers because they'd rather focus honing combat or medical or other skills instead of learning how to drive a car they can't afford.

Vehicles require money to purchase. Unlike most weapons or tools, cars and bikes start very high and go much higher. There is no 5000c starting vehicle, the base is closer to ten times that.

These are the common reasons vehicles are not used by everyone. Ability to use, and cost to acquire.

By Dreamer at Sep 12, 2019 12:41 PM

I think a big goal for characters is to get a car or other vehicle. And most of us will die before we do. Such is life ♡

By Pinklepop at Sep 12, 2019 2:09 PM

i use vehicles and i know many others that use them too

By Rangerkrauser at Sep 12, 2019 2:54 PM

I love the idea of scooters, or any vehicle that's more entry level, and Red approprate, for instance broken down rust buckets.

By Jotun at Sep 14, 2019 3:09 AM

With RP you could already make existing rust-bucket bikes very affordable, think ride-share. No need to provide disposable bikes.

By Marleen at Sep 14, 2019 3:29 AM

Adding entry level vehicles will severely detract from cabbies. When I lived in a bigass city, not everyone drives a car. there is no need with the abundance of trains and cabs. If you want a car, you pay like everyone else does.

By Dani at Sep 14, 2019 7:19 AM

+1 to what Dani said.

That is a good point that I hadn't considered. Even at 1000-3000c for a round trip, a cab is still considerably less expensive than a vehicle. My experience has been that they are priced reasonably enough that in those few instances where my character needed the added protection and convenience of a vehicle, it was possible to get it.

If vehicles are priced too inexpensively, the already under worked cabbies will be even more so.

I agree with what Marleen said too. The suggested strategy of pooling resources is valid across all areas of the game.

By Hek at Sep 14, 2019 11:43 AM

OP is attempting to have an honest conversation about what they perceive as a problem or general issue with the game and as a result I think we should give them a bit of the benefit of the doubt with regards to their opinion. I'm happy many people don't think there was a problem here but the original poster has made it clear what they're looking for in terms of feedback and I think it's fair for them to ask. Let's try to keep this on topic and not just dismiss simply because we have different experiences.

personally I would love feedback on how we can make vehicles just a tad more accessible because I think that mechanic characters could use more work!

By Slither at Sep 14, 2019 12:41 PM

I think the best thing for vechicle accessibility will be more widespread bike sharing. People seem happy to share apartments with PCs they barely know, build a bit more trust and share a ride between you. I can see the blame game of "no you dented our bike" already.

Maybe add some supporting systems for it, like an installable GPS system that allows the bike to be tracked on the grid or something. Lo-jack type of thing, that a thief can simply press "off" to disable so it is strictly "find my bike" functionality, rather than anti-theft.

By Marleen at Sep 14, 2019 1:12 PM

1) Slightly lower the cost of the economy cars to present an alternative to bikes

2) Reduce their item storage capacity if you do that

3) Make it possible for people to at least superficially damage a car with a weapon while someone is in it (but not when it's just parked on the side of the road, to prevent abuse)

4) Make it possible to shoot at the driver or passengers unless there is bulletproof glass (and maybe this is not total protection)

5) Make it possible to drag someone out of a vehicle that is damaged badly enough (like through a shattered window or crushed door) assuming you are strong enough to do so

6) Remember to disable this on NPC-operated vehicles lol

7) Make traffic less onerous

8) Make bikes crash easier if you're avoiding traffic with them and make this a toggle. Make crashes more dangerous in general

9) Make cars get dirty if left outside and give mechanics a car wash at their garages

10) Make certain parts (engine, transmission, tires) degrade with regular use in a way that affects fuel efficiency and safety, but make it so that any decent mechanic can fix this kind of non-traumatic wear and tear

11) Do that thing where any baka can completely restore minor damage but you need a master to salvage a destroyed part.

This has been gone over elsewhere in several threads but I think any of it would lead to more vehicle drama and more work for the mechanics. Keeping vehicle-bashing to scenes where players were present would also keep it from overshadowing the vehicle theft skills.

By Vera at Sep 14, 2019 1:18 PM

Vera,

Seeing those ideas in list form is pretty helpful, thanks! I am personally -ESPECIALLY- invested in actually flipping the start and end of the auto_teching progression. It makes sense both from an in real logic perspective (easier to buff out a scratch than pull a dent...) and a game mechanic perspective (Keep your vehicles well maintained, or those repairs get pricier...).

I also heavily support the car wash and/or the road wear ideas, especially when taken in conjunction with the flipping of the skill tree. As things are right now, there's effectively a flat cost to repair something, but if suddenly road wear is a thing and newbie mechs can handle the least damaged pieces...then you'rel ooking at an economy where you spend a couple hundred chy a week on maintenance for a vehicle that is regularly used.

I mean, there's really nothing on Vera's list that I -don't- like, but those two right there solve a lot of RP based issues, and then create a system where it's not the entry cost of the vehicle that is the balancing mechanism, allowing for cheaper vehicles to be implemented perhaps, or even the actual cost of the current ones to be brought down slightly? Who knows!

By RedSteelButterfly at Sep 14, 2019 2:55 PM

I think it's the same problem with seeing a Doctor. Do you need to? Sometimes, but in some areas of the game, it's not really a big need. Ever. You have to make the RP appealing somehow, at least for yourself while you sit there sad and alone. Go outside of what's coded. Mechanics have a rough spot, for sure, harder than Docs. When your chum asks what you did today, complain about it and force RP from the frustration. I do that a lot xD Tell them you spent like 12 hours doing inventory and your customers are shit because they won't even spend the flash to get their tires rotated. Start guilting people into using your services. I'm not very familiar with cars myself, so I don't have too many ideas. But maybe a few -

I don't know if cars get dirty codedly, but it doesn't matter too much. Maybe offer a wash with your service. That costs flash, of course. What about an oil change? Maybe offer a car or bike to use while it's in the shop? But you should get insurance from that gang or whatever to fuck them up if they crash it. Because that fuels other rp. Maybe you have car club... thingys. Where car owners come and show off their cars. That boosts the desire to have a car too - more chance to boost your image. Or maybe host a race sponsored by your shop? Instead of focusing on your character not being able to codedly do the things you want to do in their job, make up other stuff to fill in the gaps.

It's so so hard to drive RP without money though, I know. Some jobs are codedly just more valuable or easier to generate money from, from what little I've experienced. I've been stalled a lot because of that. I spend a lot of my money and time on things that don't codedly do anything for me. But it gets me rapport with others, is the hope at least. And a lot of time it takes extra time waiting around to include others when you can just skip steps and do it yourself. Generates RP? But I get frustrated too when you're really trying and you're just kind of stuck.

I think beyond just increasing the need for mechanics, which hopefully the staff will find time to do, there's opportunity to still push your rp past what's just immediately available in the game. I have no idea if thats helpful at all... :s

By Pinklepop at Sep 14, 2019 3:07 PM

Lets not confuse IC chores with RP.

Yep, rides could get dirty, and require ongoing maintenance etc. They also can crash more often. But will that really drive mechanics RP, or just give mechanics more flash, and add the frustration of randomly needing to find a mechanic player capable of doing X? The big point of owning a ride is that it makes doing chores a lot easier/less time consuming if that instead introduces more chores... Why get them in the first place?

From mechanics POV they are strictly convenience, making then inconvenient means they are reduced to a status symbol.

By Marleen at Sep 14, 2019 3:34 PM

There are tons of things in the game that are kinda trivial and 'chore-ish', but play important mechanical roles in the game, from ensuring characters have to visit certain areas at least occasionally, to ensuring players have to engage with other characters they might not always necessarily want to or find normal cause to. Those aren't bad things.These tweak balance and drive RP more than one might think and shouldn't be scorned out of hand.

By Jameson at Sep 14, 2019 3:41 PM

Absolutely, but also I see a lot of suggestions that directly detract from the utility of vehicles (especially bikes), and promise that those chores this creates will then drive RP. The more realistic outcome will be even fewer people driving, as it's an even smaller incentive, because, well, why spend 50k on a bike to still then get stuck in traffic and have you keep all the maintenance around it?

If you want more cars on the roads, making them more attractive, not less. By the same token, there are ways to make mechanics more attractive by giving them more tools. Maybe they can optimize your engine, or align your tires which when done boost your ride by a fair bit for X days? It's optional, baseline remains the same, and mechanics now got a hook of something to sell "Come here, come all, burn less fuel/ride faster etc".

By Marleen at Sep 14, 2019 3:50 PM

I played a medic and at first I liked it because it gave me an IC chore but over time what was really valuable was that it allowed my character to build relationships with other PCs and NPCs by saving lives (or not). It'd be nice if people could have pet mechanics the same way they have pet doctors.

By Vera at Sep 14, 2019 4:59 PM

Here here, Vera! As it is, I don't feel like the game really supports even a single dedicated mech in the mix, let alone topside, which is really a shame!

By RedSteelButterfly at Sep 14, 2019 5:14 PM

The only feedback I can offer I’ve offered before but told by the then head GM that prices for cars were fixed to reflect a measure of success.

My only suggestion is kinda simple. We are still selling 2089 model cars. Take everyone who currently has one, hand wave it to 2104/5/whatever model, and sell the 2089’s still at 2089 prices (if you recall)

Where a Holden was about 150k, a koi 125, a duo 100, and a mono 50. Maybe adjust for the economy.

I think that promotes car buying at s feasible level, as well as attributes to class divide, but I’m sure I am glossing over some downsides to this

Another suggestion would be to figure out a way to implement drunk driving (Fringe cases, I know) wear and tear, vandalism, or more features that require that mechanic to customer interaction (such as an autopilot system, GPS, rim rag dispenser)

By Grizzly666 at Sep 14, 2019 5:50 PM

I opened this after slithers post and didn’t see all the suggestions already posted in between until after I posted.

Good ideas around

By Grizzly666 at Sep 14, 2019 5:53 PM

People would still use cabs to update, and aerocabs to be pimp, and save time. They'd use their ghetto rides to shout outta and cram foos in the trunk of.

By Jotun at Sep 14, 2019 6:23 PM