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No-Selling
cmon son

Hi! Something I have noticed more and more is people literally laughing in the face of death. Like, cackling while being tortured, shrugging off an overdose, and refusing to play along when, say, set on fire or dangled off the side of a tall building. People acting with zero IC regard for their wellbeing.

Humans have survival instincts. These cause them to feel fear and have unavoidable physiological and psychological reactions to trauma. Drugs make people feel and act strange. Injuries hurt. Death, even to the devout Eternalist, is terrifying in the moment. People in dire situations will beg forgiveness, scream for help when they know none is coming, appeal to God even if they don't believe, and try to appease their attackers. Even if they stay angry, they'll at least react to the pain in the moment if nothing else.

If you have a pain editor or you've taken a mountain of Endoprine I guess you could laugh while a maniac held you down and cut out your eyes. If you get shot on a weekly basis you can probably get away with limping off in a hurry and SICing something snarky about it once you were sure it wasn't a critical injury. But pleeeeease don't shrug off an overdose, go back to the bar immediately after getting resuscitated, say 'hurry up and kill me' during a dramatic torture scene, or laugh like the Joker while having your brains bashed out unless your character has the tech, the chems, or the chops to do so. Even the biggest baddest guys alive scream and cry and get frightened in the right circumstances, and when the bulk of the playerbase is no-selling the violence and sickness that happen to their characters it just kind of cheapens the whole thing.

Anyway, that's my gripe.

This is something everyone could work on from top-down.
I know I've seen this discussion similarly somewhere else, but to add to it here, I agree and want to point out the same for when someone has been injured severely and then goes about their day, sitting and joking around, instead of seeking medical attention or playing to the stats (for lack of a better word) of their wounds and/or condition.

Some really good RP can come out of making your character show their 'human weakness' side. I think maybe we as PCs forget that in CP, being the victim (and portraying that well) can be just as memorable a scene as being the victor for all parties involved.

Paying attention to what condition your character is in works wonders..

if you are 'barely clinging to life' or 'struggling to remain conscious', you should act like it and think about whether the actions you're taking and things you are saying/how you're saying them, are congruent with your physical condition.

Completely agree. It's kind of a buzzkill when someone is barely clinging to life or mortally injured and they just start talking normally as if nothing is happening and continue on their way.

Except for chrome situations, obviously, but I feel like RPing those stressful/traumatic situations develops your character and is generally just better RP.

While I generally agree, keep in mind that them not RPing the situation how you would like it RPed does not necessarily mean it's being RPed poorly. Some people freeze up. Some people scream. Some people beg. Some people rant. Some insult back because that is how they respond to fear. There is no one right way in my opinion, just good ways and poor ways.

I'm not saying that we can't all improve our RP in situations like these but we also need to give players some creative freedom over their characters.

I would suggest that players take some time to think about how they imagine their characters would react in various situations like those mentioned here. How they can keep it realistic but also fitting to their character concept. It makes it a lot easier then making it up on the spot.

Well, I think it is safe to assume that if you’ve been cut to ribbons, are clinging to life And dangling off a rooftop getting the doom speach, cracking jokes , flirting, etc could probably be classified as ignoring the situation, not really “Not rping how someone else wants”.
I am not trying to take from others their roleplaying creativity, for sure. I think my...frustration maybe...is when there is no RP to the situation. Or, as Grizzly said, it's vastly inappropriate to the current predicament.

That said, Grey0's advice is really good. It took a few of these situations for me as the player to react quickly enough and accurately enough for my PC to engage in the RP in a way that didn't leave me having severe hindsight regret (if that makes sense). It's very easy to get totally immersed in what's being done and then remember 'oh shit! I'm supposed to do something!'

I'm not worried about people freezing up. That's only natural when you're put on the spot unexpectedly.
If you think laughing about being tortured or near death is a good reflection of your characters state of mind, it probably doesn't come close to being believable if you aren't dressing it up within a pose that reflects your current state, while injecting that laughter.

Watch this: https://youtu.be/wp3yreeTUmU

Batman versus the Joker, the Joker largely laughs and talks through his injuries, but his posture and body language undeniably reflect his wounds, right up to the end, the same for Batman.

Now you're not super heroes and super villains, but if these bakas can represent their wounds in how they act, you can do.

You don't have the benefit of a visual representation, so you have to use pose, otherwise you're robbing everyone else of a better RP experience, and honestly, you're taking away from your experience too, by being lazy.

Somewhat along these lines, at what point is it acceptable to Fade to Black?

For example, as a player, I have zero interest in playing out a torture scene. While it might be completely IC for my character to go through it, I don't want to.

What is the acceptable way to handle that? Can you have an "ooc" conversation with the other player about how far they are going to take things, and then FTB / fast forward to that point?

FTB is accepted and normal for torture scenes.
I don't disagree with the idea that we need to do our best to RP injuries, respect our character's will to live and accept that they are not super human. No disagreement. I just don't want to get in a situation where the only acceptable answer to being dangled off a roof is pleading. As long as people acknowledge the situation, their character's humanity and do their best to RP it and not just ignore it all, I am good to go.
That's all I'm saying. How your character deals with trauma is up to you, but no-selling it without good reason is more or less an attempt to say that it didn't happen.
Sounds like you should torture more people.
Just a brief side note: AFAIK Pain Chip Editors don't blot out pain at all, they just prevent the pain from overwhelming you and making you lose your consciousness.

Your brain simply doesn't shut down, it doesn't make you resistant to torture -- quite the contrary.

Right?

As I understand it you'll still feel low-end pain but not any excessive pain. Not getting KO'd as easily follows from that.
Yes, Pain Editors don't reduce pain to zero, they stop overwhelming pain from KOing you, that is it.

it ups your BODY's tolerance for pain before your brain shuts you down. It doesn't turn you into some pain for pleasure fetishist.

I think people gotta read this again.
I think that's a good call.
Folks, we are a community. As such, it would be in everyone's best interest if each poster remembered that, and kept the best interest of the game at heart when posting.

Be gracious, and constructive. Don't just throw out a blanket statement about 'some' people needing to read this.

Ranger, Azreal, without calling out s specific ic situation, or a specific character or player, could you walk through in a constructive way, what you would like players to consider the next time they are faced with a life or death situation?

OK. Well, first of all, I think it's very important to consider who your character is and what they exactly are. Like -- if you are a hardened solo who's seen some shit operating for quite the time? Makes sense if you'd be a little resistant to all that torture. Though this shouldn't be gained through backstory but through your IC actions. You know, play your character, but be realistic about it.

If you're some artsy musician type who doesn't have very good endurance, for example, and you're being tortured? Don't try to act tough. Break down, and show the other PCs that you're actually being heavily traumatized by their IC actions.

It's not very fun to me when I put the effort in to do something but get minimal effort in return and don't see the post-effects of my RP on them, too. I'm not telling you people how to play your character but I just think it makes things more realistic and fun when you see that person who had tortured you for hours and traumatized you in a way that you hire a solo to go after them and fuck them up worse than they fucked you up. It makes for good plotlines and character development if you don't just think "meh, let's just get this over with and die so I can forget all this/forget the effects" considering all of us -- even me at points -- just take cloning for granted and think "when I clone out this will all go away anyway, why should I care?".

Don't do that. Make all this shit traumatize and leave a scar on your character, then use it to plot against those same players.

I wasn't asked but this is something I have thought about a bit since the post was first made. So I'm gonna pipe up anyways. :-)

My suggestion is for players to try and think about how their character would react in such a situation before it happens. I decided when I created my current character that, should they be tortured, they will not last long. They will probably go straight to crying and begging and pleading but they will yell and say all kinds of crap to get out of the spot. They will be in pain They will betray people. Offer to give the tortures things. Try and make a deal. Screw the future and consequences, I WANT OUT!

So maybe take some time and think about your character and how they might deal with such a situation. It is so much easier when you are in this situation but have already explored this aspect of your character because you aren't having to make these calls right then as you go. You are just playing to your character instead of having to develop them and play them all at once.

I would also try and remember that is okay to 'lose'. This goes for both sides. Tortures, it's okay to have failed to get the reaction you want. Victims, it's okay to break however you think fits. Also consider which outcome might bring more RP? If I think giving the torturers what they want is more likely to generate RP, I am more inclined to do so. If I think more RP might come out of the opposite, the same applies.

I also think it's important to keep in mind that most everyone will likely have an excuse as to why they wouldn't break. And a reason why the other person should. I bet that some of the tortures that have voiced dissatisfaction wouldn't react all that differently if their character's were in the chair. And they would rationalize it some way just like their victim did. With this in mind I do my best not to be judging their RP all that harshly. At most I might ask the GMs if they could check in and advise the player.

Lastly, if nobody is getting any satisfaction from the scene, just fade to black and have a quick talk on local OOC about what went down. No point in two or more characters spending hours on RP that nobody is enjoying.

Speaking from experience in the sadistic arts, people tend to have a resistance to giving up things that they have worked for. We all say all about the top but expectations versus reality is just that players can be and are very materialistic about their gear, intel, etc.

Sometimes the player is just in disagreement with the situation they are in and don’t want to play along.

It is rather discouraging for multiple people to plot a kidnapping and torture and the majority of what you get back is “no matter what you do to me, you won’t get what you want” and “kill me so I can just never leave my cube again “. It sounds like an OOC fuck you and also like a passive aggressive way of Trying to guilt trip someone into not doing something in the name of retaining you as an active player. I’m not saying you give it all up every time, but be graceful about it I guess.

Yeah, I agree with Grizzly and Grey0. Obviously this doesn't always mean every single character should break at torture and give people whatever they want, but it's discouraging to plot something, go with it, only to get "ha I will sit in my pad you can't do anything" in return to threats and the torture.
I think I meant for my comment to be more of a 'bump' than a 'I c u out there bakas', and mainly coming from the perspective of someone who categorically did /not/ have the sort of forethought Grey describes out the gate. I also think he nailed it as far as having a constructive take on it goes.
via Imgflip Meme Generator

Just for the lulz

If I were a GM I wouldn't be like, "hey you're in pain, give him/her your door codes and locker codes, sorry it's IC". While we all should RP fear and anxiety properly there comes a point where you (player) will try to not lose everything just because someone else is torturing you. And that's fine to me. I think most of us would react the same way. I've seen NPCs do it, even.
That’s not what I was getting at at all.
I'm very new here so I can't speak on the prevalence of anything in game, really, but I want to pose a few questions anyway. In a Cyberpunk universe where everyone is stepping on someone else to get ahead would not sadism and sadistic personalities be rampant? I think that's safe to assume, and if we make that assumption wouldn't the next logical step be that masochism and extreme cowardice would rise to be the predominate reactions to such an environment? I can't imagine someone in the middle ground surviving for very long without changing fundamentally. Would I scream and cry or go blank and shaky in half the situations I've seen in Sindome? Absolutely. But perhaps more importantly, I wouldn't survive in that world, period. What's the point of me trying to RP a response to something based on an emotional foundation that my PC could not possibly share? I wouldn't be RPing anymore. If someone beat me bloody tomorrow it would ruin my month, probably my year. If someone did it every week, I'd either turn into a twitchy, paranoid basket case or I'd get used to it eventually and try to move on with my life as best I could.

And to clarify I mean masochism in a nihilistic sense, not a sexual one. Obviously I understand that the vast majority of masochists as we know them IRL would not be aroused by non-consensual acts.

I guess. I mean if I cut your feet off and you’re cracking jokes about saving money on shoes then just not waste everyone’s time and request it Ftb.

The gist of the complaint is not “I tortured this guy or girl and didn’t get what I wanted”

It is I set out to icly mutilate and psychologically destroy this person and for reasons and since nobody wants that to happen to their character their demeanor becomes hardened John Rambo combined with Eddie Murphy. It’s cool if you just wanna skip it.

I understand that it probably makes your RP feel less impactful when you encounter someone who has less of a survival instinct than you expect. I can see how that would be frustrating or even boring. My point was that these people probably SHOULD theoretically exist by the very nature of the game's world. I'm not talking about skipping anything. I mean the topic should probably be more nuanced than "People IRL act like X, so they should act like X in game too."
I guess it just boils down to a difference in opinion.
In the past, I've spent more energy plotting to kidnap and torture people to be disappointed by their lack of participation than I care to explain but I share Grizzly and Vera's frustration in this regard.

I've also gone to to great lengths to be a good victim to accommodate other people's efforts and in turn became a bit of punching-bag of RP at times...I've also been a total flub at times. As brutal as it may be, it can really turn into some really interesting RP. That said, if you are uncomfortable with RP'ing to that level because its disturbing - just OOCly opt-out but please do try to cooperate on some IC level.

In my experience it is considerably easier to perm someone or outright brutalize them into defeat than it is to kidnap and engage in this sort of RP. If you fail to engage in one - you will likely be met with the other. To Grizzly's initial point, this is something everyone could work on from top-down.

That is getting dangerously close to sounding like "I will permanently kill your PC if you do not respond to my RP in the way I want you to" and I hope that's not what you're trying to say.

Speaking personally, I am not uncomfortable with ultra-violent RP. I like a good story, no matter the outcome. If you decide to tie me up and cut off my feet IG, I'll certainly play along. But if my PC does not conform to your expectations in that situation, I don't see that as a failure on my part.

Unless you work out your RP with the person beforehand, I don't think you have a basis for being upset when they don't follow a script, despite how much work you may or may not have put into the situation.

I think people absolutely have the right to be upset. One of the main tenets of the game is cooperative competition. People may not always interpret it the same, but it's encouraged that instead of just straight up killing characters to perhaps find different ways to interact with them meaningfully. Torture, beatdowns, warnings, kdnappings, blackmail.

But what happens when you do these acts and it doesn't seem to have an effect? You have your character send a message through the beatdown only to see your target shrug it off and act like they do on every other day. Just have their toes melted off and made to drink them? But they're acting like it's pretty much fine? Okay. Kill them. Except what happens when they act like death also doesn't effect them? Okay. So maybe they really only value their possessions.. except, well, you get the theme of these examples now.

So what do you do. Do you just disengage from RP from them? Do you resort to the only solution you have left aka perming them?

That's really what most of this thread concerns. It isn't about "oh, I tortured this guy, but they won't give me their codes or their flash or super important data." It's.. "Oh, okay. I tortured this guy. But no matter what I do, no matter what occasion, it never has any RP payoff."

That's a disheartening experience for people who put in effort to do tangible, meaningful RP events that don't necessarily lead to death. Only to get what's essentially a non-reaction. It isn't an issue of a PC not conforming to expectations of a player. It's an issue of sometimes people not.. reacting at all.

What is an appropriate reaction?

Say you've tied my PC up and put my eyeballs in my mouth or whatever you had planned. Clearly I'm going to be blind until I find work something out. Is the gist of the complaint that people aren't RPing non-coded ramifications of events? There's a possibility that my PC could see that as a major inconvenience rather than life altering emotional trauma depending on the circumstances. Sure if you made a family member do it or something I'd be pretty messed up but if you're just robbing me or taking revenge I can probably get some new eyes eventually. That's not outlandish in a cyberpunk universe.

I certainly wouldn't go afk while you were putting your melon baller to me and I probably wouldn't chew them up and spit them at you unless my PC was high off their gourd and was the mouthy type. Are these the issues? I'm asking honestly, as a very new player who tries very hard to act true to my PC.

I think Reefer and Crashdown totally get it.

I’m not going to tell you how to react to it. No point in really suggesting much else then what has already been posted a ton on here either. But what I will say is if you anger someone to the point of them doing something like this to you, 10/10 times they want you to live with and it’s an alternative to them having to kill you in a situation they believe justifies your death.

When these people start killing you left and right with minimal interaction it’s likely because they’ve given up on the majority of people who pop wood at their wood being popped off or whatever.

I also remember the situation that led to this post from Vera. It was because an NPC had been harmed to near death by a deadly weapon and was being dangled off a tall building and they were all smiles, cracking jokes, flirting, the whole nine yards. That is where the top down remark comes from. I think I am venturing into unpopular opinion land here when I say just because you saw a GM do it before doesn’t make it the right thing to do in every situation.

To simplify, if you don’t plan to be effected by it then ask to skip it. We can go back and fourth all day about it but that’s what you will keep coming back to.

I'm just going to add something really quick to this. If someone goes through the effort of kidnapping you/torturing you or whatever, it means they're risking a lot more than they would normally if they just outright killed you through code supported combat. It means they are putting effort in and RP in in an attempt to interact with you.

It's very easy for me to type "attack Joe" and then kill someone on the street then execute you and vat you - it'd take less than five minutes, but it takes a lot more time and effort on my end to plan it out, scout everything and follow you around, locate you, grab you, drag you to somewhere and then RP with you in an attempt to actually provide both sides something -- which can take considerably longer, hours -- instead of the usual red screen and vatting. The point is that if in both ways we're going to have the same outcome in either scenario and you don't wanna do anything else, then there's no point in putting all that effort with the interrogation RP only to have to type "attack Joe" and kill you anyway and get the exact same outcome if I had killed you on the street.

If you're just gonna wait to die and do not want another outcome and wanna push your character towards clone death, just inform the other party OOC so we can just outright F2B and proceed to kill you instead of attempting to do something else and then all of us can resume whatever RP we had going on.

I think these are definitely legit complaints, but don't forget that there's a person on the other end of the keyboard and they may not have the same emotionless dispassion as to what's going on as their torturer does. We act as though it's just a game but people's first reaction to being mutilated may not be "Man, this is dope! This chummer could have aced me easy but instead he wants to flay off my skin! Goddamn, it's gonna be a challenge to RP this crippling handicap, but I love it! I wish there was some way I could thank him for twisting my psyche!"

Most people, when they get kidnapped and tortured, unless it's old hat to them, are probably upset, because a lot of people have strong connections to their characters and don't want to see them harmed, abused, etc. I don't mean from an "I'm uncomfortable with this RP" standpoint, I mean from a "This is horrible that it's happening to my character" standpoint.

I once had to intimidate an immy, so I dragged them to a rooftop and beat them up. I then put on my very best RP face, emoting, making it seem like a dramatic scene, trying to play up their dire circumstances, and they literally just didn't care. No-sold the injuries, ignored what I was saying, and generally acted like they were waiting for me to kill them or depart. At the time I remember thinking, "Why did I put this effort in? It was literally for them and they're not interested."

And the answer is, people don't immediately warm to being attacked and threatened. They don't immediately see you as another person trying to direct them in a themely way without killing them.

I've also seen a really amazing player interrogated and it was a completely different experience, they made the people questioning them look boring AF by comparison, they plead for their life, they got shrewd, they tried persuasion, they went through stages, and I assume everyone there was OOCly floored and appreciative of them playing along.

I've seen plenty of NPCs tortured or interrogated as well. Even NPCs don't just give you the information you want, especially if they've seen some shit (like most Mixers have) and especially if it's something that could hurt them. In a world of cloning, the threat of death or violence doesn't have quite the same sting, especially because dying is often cheaper than whatever you're asking them to give up. People do have a survival instinct, but in a Genetek world, they also think about their long-term survival, not just the present moment.

Having been interrogated and killed, I can tell you it also feels disappointing to really RP your hardest for the person questioning you, to lie, flatter, cajole, flirt, rationalize, talk circles around them, seem convincing, make cinematic tension and drama with your poses, and still just end up getting killed at the end of it. You don't necessarily think "Well that was a waste of time," it's more like, "Nothing I could have done would have saved me, but I tried."

TL;DR

For victims: Recognize that someone is making an effort to try and RP with you in a more interesting way than just murdering you outright. They're trying to leave a lasting impression on your character. They may be giving you a chance to amend your ways so they don't have to kill you. In that spirit, try to put aside your OOC frustration and make it interesting for them in return. You might earn major respect points from your enemies.

For torturers: Realize that players, especially newer players, may have an emotional reaction to their character's situation and lose interest in playing along. They're only human.

I agree with what you are saying Crooknose, and tried to point out those same sentiments, I think you just worded it better. Thanks.
I kept up with this thread a while before, and recent responses have made me want to reply, now.

I do think that overall, this whole discussion has been much more nuanced than "People IRL act like X, so they should act like X in game too." Maybe there were a few posts like that, but the majority of posts here have made me aware of different perspectives on the matter, and I hope more people read through this thread because of that.

Grizzly, that's a pretty discouraging thing to hear about with the NPC, but I'm glad you shared it. All I can personally do is trust and assume there were factors going on in the background which I won't ever be aware of, which justify and contextualize that sort of reaction to deadly torture.

But I do agree that just because an NPC was seen responding to torture and abuse in such a way once, doesn't mean we should do it every time. Taking (clone)death and torture seriously is part of the theme, and we work together to cultivate that theme, right?

Also, there might be a threshold where, if enough characters are no-selling and/or laughing/joking/flirting giddily while being brutally tortured, then it just loses it's perceived value as a noteworthy character trait. If Brons Charleson, Cee Lan Veef, Lint Leastwood, Fenry Honda, Ian Olontè, and Johnny Whiteshroud have all had their limbs dissolved away in an excruciatingly painful process that takes five hours to complete, and they have all taken the time out of their busy time being tortured to compliment me on the way I did my hair while giving me a big smile, how is it any kind of noteworthy if Weli Allach asks me for my number while going through the same? Sure, that's 7 people out of 77 million... And I don't think we're there yet right now. But I'm saying if we let it get there, it's maybe not gonna be a very interesting trend that negatively impacts everyone's RP.

Also, one other supplemental point about changing people's behavior. Part of the idea behind torture (and murder) can be to get someone to do something--to make them stop talking shit about you, to teach them not to mess with you, to screw up or take over their business, to get the information you want, etc.

I think we tend to see a hierarchy of conditional fucking-with-someone based on the maturity of the player. An immature player (or one without resources) may just kill someone. A player who's feeling more secure might first beat them up and threaten them, then kill them if they don't listen. A player with a lot of resources who's being respectful of their own power might first threaten someone, then kidnap and torture them, then kill them if they don't get the message.

The idea is that the more mature you are, the more RP you're trying to create. The corollary reality is that if people don't respond to the efforts to change their behavior, they're gonna get got, and at that point it's on them.

I just want to take a step back and say, supposing you play your character realistically and when someone threatens you, you listen, because you don't want to get murdered. The people leaning on you would be OOCly happy with that, because they'd feel like their RP was justified, they managed to accomplish something without murder, etc.

The player who changes their behavior, though, unless it's something as simple as not talking smack, tends to pay a price for doing so. I've always tried to play my character realistically, with a realistic desire to live and to not be in danger, and I feel like I've dealt with tons of IC criticism for it from both PCs and sometimes NPCs.

These criticisms typically include the admonishment that you'll always be in danger no matter what you do, so don't let other people dictate your behavior; that if you give people what they're after they'll see you as weak and keep coming after you. I was even told once that if I didn't like conflict I should just leave the city.

All of which is to shed light on two points:

Characters face IC consequences for letting other people cow them. You may see your torturing/intimidation/kidnapping as showing mercy and grow heartless when your victims no-sell the psychic fallout, but in reality, people don't tend to appreciate your character realistically reacting to what happens to them because...

Players are inherently meta. They adopt the set of truths about their character that is most convenient to them. All it takes is making a few reactive decisions to the horrors you've witnessed before you realize that no one respects those choices. Unless you're portraying a character purely for your own interest in their narrative arc, you want to play with other people, which means a bit of conforming to everyone else's meta-expectations. That means you may not betray people just because someone's holding your feet to the fire. People just know that they're not going to do that, so their character summons the grit to not do it.

I know, this topic is about, people need to react realistically to torture, and I agree. I'm just trying to show some nuance on the pressures characters feel to not be a push-over.

Crooknose brings up a great point about character maturity and the breadth of options that maturity enables.

My perspective on this is as both a new player and character. I have zero interest in preserving the life of any other character who acts violent towards me. There is zero upside for me. The only thing that leaving another character alive does is to perpetuate a struggle that I might not end up on the winning side of next time.

My perspective has been formed by the amount of no selling that goes on. It is impossible to be on SIC for more than two or three days without coming across characters whose story is effectively, "I just got out the vat. Yup, I did something bad and I deserved to get vatted in the first place. Yup, I'm back to doing that exact same thing right now." That's the OOC perspective.

The IC perspective is that it is absolutely stupid to leave anyone alive who would be a threat to you. Even if you beat them today, what prevents them from coming back tomorrow with more friends, or better weapons, or a different, more effective strategy?

If the answer to that is, "You have a clone / bank account / fall back position" then we're right into the meat of the torture discussion. Either you care about what you have and you are afraid to lose it, to the point of giving into torture. Or you know that you have a fallback position, and you kind of shrug it off. At a certain point, a character just wants it to be over. If the torturer does too much permanent damage, the character is likely going to prefer a new, vat grown body to their old, scared and perhaps permanently handicapped self.

Then there is the messy middle ground where IC and OOC meet. OOCly, there is a limited player base to pull from. Therefore you want to encourage people to stick around, and not necessarily remove any and all threats as soon as they make themselves known. Doing that well requires trust. Trust is short supply in a game like this. Even if YOU are willing to make the "dumb" choice to let someone live, are they going to return the favor when the shoe is on the other foot?

Which brings us right back to maturity. And the need for a top down "solution" to this. Long lived characters and staff run NPCs have resilience. The resilience allows them a wide range of options for dealing with threats. By the very nature of choosing something like kidnapping or torture in lieu of clone death or perming, they are sending a message. They are communicating "I am powerful. I am SO powerful, that I am not going to kill you... this time."

I think it falls upon the less powerful characters to realize that they are being given a chance. Even if that recognition is OOC / meta, it still needs to be recognized. It needs to be recognized that they are being given the opportunity to hold onto their character.

As for RPing torture itself, that's a personal preference. I'm in the FtB camp. I have zero interest in RPing out someone else's sadistic fantasies of inflicting pain on a helpless victim. Just OOCly give me a list of what you want to know, I'll ICly give you the relevant answers and we'll move on. I personally think torture falls up there with kiddie porn on the list of stuff that is morally reprehensible and shouldn't be given a forum. But that's just me.

As for RPing torture itself, that's a personal preference. I'm in the FtB camp. I have zero interest in RPing out someone else's sadistic fantasies of inflicting pain on a helpless victim. Just OOCly give me a list of what you want to know, I'll ICly give you the relevant answers and we'll move on. I personally think torture falls up there with kiddie porn on the list of stuff that is morally reprehensible and shouldn't be given a forum. But that's just me.

I think that’s pretty inappropriate and has nothing to do with the discussion. It is a tool in a game where a large aspect is centered around violence and as you even acknowledged is a way for one character to give another a form of a pass. I’d like to think there are no people like that here. We could all form our lists of what we think is morally disgusting but chances are it has nothing to do with this discussion.

I just want to throw in that I was wrong. You can not Fade to Black for a torture scene. As described in 'help FTB', the only acceptable use of FTB is "to skip mutual explicit sexual RP (aka MOOsex)." I thought a staff member had said that FTB was acceptable for torture but I was clearly wrong. :-)

Also, I fully agree with the points crashdown, Reefer and Crooknose have made. While I do not think anyone should be forced to follow someone else's script or to give out specific information, we should all try our best to take these situations seriously. I don't think that any of our characters are not immune to fear and pain. Just to you best to react reasonably to fear and pain in a way that you feel fits your character.

Yes, you can FTB torture scenes. I ask every time I puppet. Even some GMs do not like to see it, and will silence their channels and duck out if it's going on. We cannot force people to participate in graphic violence down to the gory details if it makes them uncomfortable in real life. It's not required for a good gameplay experience.
There's some disagreement on this topic that's being actively discussed. If we make any hard line changes and establish a solid line on what is acceptable to skip, we'll update everyone and the help files.
I was in a situation where I knew it was almost a certainty I would be kidnapped and tortured for information, so I prepared for this really extensively both IC and OOC. I pre-wrote all sorts of different character descriptions and nakeds, I decided where my breaking points should be based on my character history, how I would best deal with the aftermath (including designing some special clothing), and I did my best to think of ways to guide the RP to something that wasn't just a textual abattoir.

To be then essentially mocked, told I was wasting the kidnapper's time because I didn't crumble after a few minutes of mean mugging and violence way below the threshold of where my character would ever break for such a serious betrayal, and then killed -- it's like, why did I even bother? Then reading this thread, it's hard not to feel like I'm codedly being told I'm a bad RPer because I didn't sufficiently 'sell' screaming and crying in agony at being hacked to pieces, because I didn't immediately betray people in a way that would completely destroy my character's life.

If you think someone is not acting within the confines of their character or realism, involve a GM.

Hello again.

If someone beats, stabs, or shoots you until you are at the brink of death, consider roleplaying that your character is afraid or in pain instead of acting indignant, bored, or demanding that you be killed.

I don't know if you've ever been beaten unconscious IRL. I have. I didn't wake up with a list of demands or start spitting on people.

Even someone whose entire life revolves around violence should at least be shaken or dazed by serious trauma. That doesn't mean you need to start crying and begging for mercy but like, at least roll around on the ground and groan or something rather than acting like the attacker is merely inconveniencing your character.

+1 pls sell it
Two things to add.

Please pay attention to characters condition at the end of their descs, even if they are not. If somebody walks into a bar barely clinging to life, maybe suggest that you're not going to do anything with them until they see a doctor. Or assume that they are delirious from the pain and need a doctor. Or whatever you feel is appropriate. "Hey mona, this is the bar, not the clinic. You should be two blocks down from here."

If another character is playing up their injuries, do not ignore them. I have run into situations where my character is badly beaten or clinging to life,and some other characters try to have normal conversations with them. The other characters wanted something from my character so badly, that was all that they could focus on.

ANOR, BLESS.

I have, on at least three occasions, seen strippers full on doing a show routine in a room of PCs, with injures and a status where was like 'struggling to stay conscious'. My PC tried to point out, and was literally ignored by absolutely everyone in the room. This is probably why doctor RP is kinda boring. Cmon.

Maybe call the doctor Jameson! Be the good samaritan that wont let the stripper dance while she's bleeding out. Could you complain to the boss on why he's allowing someone so crippled to work? It's time for a mandatory wellness check, this poor soul has clearly lost it and needs to be checked out stat. Heehee. But really, is that a response the admins would support? I would hope so.
I mean, like I said, a room of 4-5+ PCs ignored my ass trying to point out how dumb the situation was.

I could get on pubSIC and be like "Yo, why is MIXY TITTY LAND letting CINNAMON BLISS dance with nine gunshot wounds, she's about to pass out?"

But then exactly this would happen:

The PCs who ignored it to begin with would still ignore it, except for like one dude who's like 'I'M THE ONE WHO GUNNA PASS OUT, THESE TITTIES DON'T QUIT'

Cinnamon Bliss says something snarky or trying to be alluring because they just wanna stripper RP and not be arsed with going to the doctor or waiting out their injuries

Owner of MIXY TITTY LAND gets on pubSIC, says 'YOU GOTS A PROB WITH MY STRIP JOINT, JAMESON? 500K FOR YOUR HEAD AND NEVER COME BACK'

good rp. I'll just xhelp it next time really silly stuff happens, it's the best way to handle it honestly.

Yeahh u rite tho. That does seem exceptionally weird. Hopefully the admins will step in and correct that kinda thing. Shame to flat out ignore game code like that.
Owner of MIXY TITTY LAND gets on pubSIC, says 'YOU GOTS A PROB WITH MY STRIP JOINT, JAMESON? 500K FOR YOUR HEAD AND NEVER COME BACK'

ha

I have given up on this topic tbh. The best you can hope for is someone sees it for what it is and plays accordingly. Like in Jameson's case, you can't MAKE them do anything about it short of dragging them by the hair to the clinic and if a GM can't be assed about, welp. What can ya do?
@Jameson that's hilarious and also sad (but also believable that she would still need to work, but also unbelievable that she could be remotely appealing).

Like come on, collapse on stage and get a doc there and be like:

CBliss>> Doc to Red Hounds pls, can't let these tity quity

I cannot believe how widespread and pervasive this is.

Every damn time.

I think it doesn't help that NPCs also don't give a shit about injuries. There's no automated script that sends the NPC stripper from Mixy Titty Land to a doctor so she's up on that stage with half her skin burnt off.
NPCs are fine. I am talking about combat logging, responding to extraordinary acts of violence and terror with yawns, angry OOCs, or just total silence, SICing like you're totally fine when you just got wrecked, acting like violence is blase and not scary, and generally being a poor sport.

Why am I roleplaying with you if you are not roleplaying with me?

I've xhelped and it's been handled but it's such a constant and repeated problem that it really sucks the fun out of things for some archetypes and hurts immersion all around.

I mean what is my incentive not to just silently murder people over and over and necksnap for free loot? Better than wasting hours RPing by myself.

I honestly got bored of people who are about to die and in face of it keep spitting/cursing/whatever. If you don't care about living that much that when facing death you will keep asking for it, don't get another clone and take the next skywalk right. Either you PC cares about living or it doesn't.
I honestly got bored of people who are about to die and in face of it keep spitting/cursing/whatever. If you don't care about living that much that when facing death you will keep asking for it, don't get another clone and take the next skywalk right. Either you PC cares about living or it doesn't.
I can count on one hand the player characters I've had my PC do awful things to who have responded appropriately. These are not isolated incidents, it's the status quo.

What's worse is that because of this, when someone does take it on the chin and act like it, everyone treats them like they're a huge crybaby because they've all seen other people just smirk and laugh it off.

A character might be committed to something enough that being murdered and ceasing to exist and having a clone that thinks it's still them but isn't created in a lab is not the biggest deterrant, but it should still be giving them some kind of pause.

Why am I roleplaying with you if you are not roleplaying with me?

You might want to at least consider the possibility they don't want to role-play with you. Mechanically you can force players to interact with you, and the GMs can encourage players to RP accordingly, but you can't actually force anyone to engage with you on anything -- if you find this is a chronic issue you may either want to think about approaching things from a different angle (are you giving those players any reason to want to interact with you?), or just finding other players who are interested in playing along.

I can definitely assure you that in my Sindome career I have had no shortage of people lining up to RP with me and then trying to duck out of consequences when this goes poorly.

This isn't me grabbing up someone and pulling their eyes out for funsies, it's poor sports abandoning RP when they stop winning.

And even if you don't want to RP with me, ...sorry? Go play a different game. My characters are a part of this world and logging in means potentially dealing with them.

If you're finding you're chronically getting disengagement and dis-involvement from other players, falling back on 'you have to play with me, it's the rules' is probably not going to get you any farther. Characters are mechanically forced to adhere to the game's systems, which includes combat -- no one can choose to simply ignore it, but every person's role-play is their own discretion. If you don't like how someone role-plays with you, why would you want to force them to? Just rob them, vat them, and move on.
I can't even parse that argument. If I'm spooling your guts out on a kebab rotisserie and you're smirking or logging out I am going to xhelp.
This stuff always bums me out and my experiences with Vera in particular are nothing but lovely, honestly. I sometimes wish there was @opt-in ability so I could determine who was worth the time for this sort of thing before investing.

I believe we can deal with this as a community and be civil about it. For the past couple of days, I have been faced with some serious emotional bleed due to some personal circumstances and unavoidable feelings. While not ideal - I was able to communicate this in so many words to my aggressors. They don't owe it to me ICly to back of and give me space but OOCly I think they got it. Does that mean I'm off the hook ICly? Hell no...but it did give me the space needed (from harassing me on public sic) to collect my thoughts and better equip myself to be the RP partner they deserve.

At its root, I think no-selling is a causality of the culture which has slowly taken over our community. Frankly, it's toxic. It's the reason OOC-Chat is a clusterfuck and why the bgbb is becoming the same. We have seriously lost the cooperative component of competition. With that, I'm faced with the Seymour Skinner paradox...is it the Staff or the Players who dictate that culture? I'm not sure. I think we all need to take a hard look at that, discuss our grievances and challenges then make strides to do better together.

This is not new at all. A year or so ago I developed a strict policy of neck-snapping and not even bothering to talk to most of my enemies because it was never worth the bother. Everyone was an action movie badass who could not feel pain or injury and could laugh off any loss or insult. But they have loot so you can just like kill them and take it.

This was bad for them for sure. People who could have walked away with a black eye and a cool story were being murderhobo'd because I was just so tired of the no-selling. This is what I was talking about with the 'I don't owe you RP' thing in the victimhood thread.

Now that I'm back I've tried to give people a better experience but like, it is never ever ever worth the bother. People mouth off, you smack them down, and they just go right back to it and act like you didn't do anything to them. I've seen multiple people IC complain of 'being rooted in place' after having all of their bones broken because the only way they're conceptualizing the loss is as an OOC inconvenience.

So...why play a violent character if all it's ever going to net you is a bunch of chucklefucks pushing your buttons to provoke a reaction and then totally ignoring all consequences when you spend time and energy to give them an appropriate in-character response? You get no rep, no fun, no story. It just leaves such a bad taste in my mouth.

Disclaimer: Vera, I don't blame you for feeling that way or deciding to act that way.

BUT

I don't think the answer to cheap / shallow RP is no RP / murder-hobo solutions.

I think the best you can do is RP how you -want- to, like, not being snarky, I mean this completely, be the RP you want to see in the Dome, all that. When people react in those really stupid unrealistic ways.....xhelp, @note, whatever you feel is effective. Like, do it every time. I absolutely would. I can't imagine the admin being mad that you would. I understand you not feeling like it's your job to police people's RP to call on staff all the time, but if the problem is that rampant....well, it IS the staff's job to reign stuff in and help coach people whose RP is falling short of at least basic community standards.

If anyone has ever happened across any GTAV RP streams or done it themselves, they might know that some of even the only -light- RP servers, not to mention the more serious RP servers, have pretty clear NVL (No Valuing Life) rules. Basically for punishing exactly this kinda silly shit, where people in life-threatening situations are expected to RP as if their life has meaning and they can't just respawn without consequences. Granted, SD has more coded consequences than something like GTAV RP, the the spirit would apply. It's something that should maybe be more broadly discussed, at a town hall, by staff, in @newbie, I don't know.

Even badass veteran Navy seals crack under torture, get PTSD sometimes, etc. Shit that happens to you should matter, especially in the moment. Quit getting mad that you're 'losing' in some way, enjoy a really intense moment to RP in a way you don't always get to. Even gangers that vat out like several times a week sometimes shouldn't be used to it, it should be grating, their should be existential psychological shit. People who pop out of the vat and just jump on pubSIC going 'Okay, who was it this time?' That's really lame, that's no-selling too.

I'm not saying the murderhoboing was right. Quite the opposite - it was not as fun for me and it couldn't have been fun for the people whose day was interrupted with twenty seconds of red text and a death scroll. It was just that every time I engaged with anybody outside of this whitelist of ten people I knew I could count on for some fun RP, all I got was suicidal clowns or a lot of OOC whining. So I just kinda lost interest in trying.

That's a sad situation. I've been having fun now that I'm back but I've noticed so much of this and the other day someone took it so far that I was left wondering why I even bother. You're not roleplaying, why should I?

Yeah, absolutely, I get that. I guess that's what my reasoning is -- you should roleplay, because you enjoy it, why else would you be here. If someone you engage with is ruining that by NOT roleplaying (or roleplaying so badly, going off OOCly that it might as well not count), the staff are there, I would hope, to either coach people like that or remove them from the game.

There has to be a certain height to the floor we expect around here. We're all giving each other our time, but we're also kinda asking it of others, which implies a certain expectation that time is respected with some modicum of effort.

I believe we can deal with this as a community and be civil about it. For the past couple of days, I have been faced with some serious emotional bleed due to some personal circumstances and unavoidable feelings. While not ideal - I was able to communicate this in so many words to my aggressors. They don't owe it to me ICly to back of and give me space but OOCly I think they got it. Does that mean I'm off the hook ICly? Hell no...but it did give me the space needed (from harassing me on public sic) to collect my thoughts and better equip myself to be the RP partner they deserve.

Not to sound too preachy but if you have some RL stuff to deal with, step away from the game. It's not a safe space, it is not a friendly environment and trying to get other people to ICly give you a break because it is not fair. You see RL bleeding into your IC, @quit, take your time, handle your life first, as it's way more important anyway. And if you @quit in your home, you will be safe from consequences until you are fit and well enough to handle this stuff again. People understand OOC happening, so if you are not online, no one is going to mess with you too much, most of the time.

The worst part for me, about people not selling death, is that my PC is quite averse to killing/torturing whatsoever. So if you are on the end of it from my PC that means you have repeatedly asked for it and refused attempts to resolve this without having to go down to violence. And then, despite all of this, I still get those suicidals who just use a PC as booth replacement, but I guess without having to write a note. It is not an enjoyable job to handle.

1. I think it is a good idea that if you're having a bad time IRL, Sindome may not be the best for you. However Sindome MAY be the best for you. Some people use it as an escape to get away from IRL daily grind/issues/stress. Its up to each responsible player to think 'Should I be playing this right now? Is my RL situation making me do things IC I wouldn't, or purposefully ruining peoples time OOC because of RL?' We as GMs expect people to hold themselves responsible, so in the end its up to the individual.

2. No Selling is unfortunate. And I mean the examples given of RP/Behavior that is OOC. (rolling eyes, sighing, ooc frustrations). Some people don't know how to correctly RP a rough scene, and some people don't want to. This is where OOC confirmation comes in. Its never a bad idea to, with a player you aren't familiar with, check in OOC.

An example I have seen from players and have used as a GM goes something like: "ooc So I'm going to be doing a pretty graphic scene next, but if you're not comfortable with it we can fade to black (FTB) and just say it happened. Please say so either way" The player may respond "ooc Nah its cool, torture away!" or "ooc Oh, yea I'm not a fan, could we FTB?" and that is totally normal and accepted behavior on Sindome. TLDR You don't -have- to be cool with hours of victim RP. But it is courteous to request a FTB, or of course, not purposefully ruin the RP by acting in a nonsensical OOC way.

I'm on the same page as Marleen. Despite the over-the-top nature of things I try to play a pretty grounded character. I like combat and of course I try to win but I'm not super interested in hours of Hostel RP and I usually feel pretty rotten about perming people unless they've demonstrated a total lack of concern for their life IC and then like...it's a chore. Not a fun one. I just have to destroy this character who is not roleplaying for kinda OOC reasons so I can go back to playing normally. I'm not here to spend hours putting a spotlight on you because you want to ignore theme.

Players treating certain characters like suicide booths is annoying. Players ignoring threat and injury and having their characters behave in needlessly provocative ways despite all attempts to change their mind with violence are annoying. Characters waking up from having all their bones broken and bitching that they can't walk to the bar or screaming 'just kill me' are totally out of character. It just feels like OOC trolling that certain players are expected to spend time and resources moderating IC and it is a drag.

And the next time someone irritably OOCs me when I take a swing at them I am probably going to think about turning that into a necksnap with no further RP.

I try my best to RP out the victim side of things when on the receiving end of it - those scenes can be a lot of fun, even if emotionally taxing and scary sometimes!

But if my character wakes up from the vats and feels like she's about to be permed (even if I as a player know it'll work out) then I am going to RP her how I feel she would react - which is being afraid and yelling and kicking up a fuss. She will probably learn her lesson and try shut up when she's more composed.

Some animals just bite and go all out when they feel they're losing it all. On the other hand, some people just give up and say 'kill me already' because they're depressed and exasperated.

As long as there's RP then what does it matter?

When things get too intense or emotional for me OOCly, I take a break from the game. Sure, I have to deal with the consequences ICly when I come back, but I take them in stride.

I actually really appreciate the players who put effort into a scene before killing or hurting a character. I know it can be more difficult to pull off and has a greater risk of them being interrupted or discovered, so don't expect it, but thanks for making the sucky times IC feel like the player still cares.

Also thank you to the players on the receiving end who make the effort to RP. I never feel good about killing or hurting your characters on an OOC level and wish I could give players an OOC hug without ruining the moment.

I find that I trust the players who put in effort to RP the victim scenario more than those who don't, so it's more likely I'll take the risk to give them more RP opportunity next time (which means more chance for them to influence the events via RP not just code) vs straight up kill/maim + escape.

I don't think people have to roll over and beg for mercy every time, just that they should be acting as though something bad has happened - whether they come out of that with fear or anger or shock or whatever is up to them. Obviously every character and situation is different, I'm just hoping that people can take their wins and losses and turn this into part of the story rather than just shrugging off any RP where their character isn't invincible platinum dynamite.
Having been on both sides of it I think Dreamers point makes a lot of sense. Not everyone knows how to do that kind of scene and not everyone will enjoy being in that kind of scene.

There is also from my experiences, frustration on the side of the victim player, where helplessness bleeds OOC and people get OOC frustrated by the lack of ability to do anything to save their character. I think that can then bleed IC. It takes time for newer roleplayers to get a feel for handling themselves in those kinds of scenes. I prefer to look at that as a learning experience and see if I can't guide them a bit instead of jumping to them being terrible or ruining my RP by 'no selling'.

I don't find the discussion of how these folks are wrong or bad to be productive. Yelling at folks to get better isn't the solution. Showing them how to be, both ICly and OOCly, with a bit of compassion for their situation OOCly is the best way to approach and fix this problem each time it comes up. And no amount of BGBB posts is going to stop it continuing to come up as long as we have new players with varying levels of rp experience entering the game.

To those who create engaging RP solutions, from all of us who will eventually find you and have our Sindome experience enriched, please don't stop.

Here is my take, and some constructive criticism for both sides.

Before engaging in any torture whatsoever, definitely pause and ask, "Hey, this is about to get real torturey. You down with that or should we close the curtain for a fade to black."

This has the obvious effect of displaying kindness to the player, of course, but other effects as well. It separates murderhobo from Vera for the other player. (sorry Vera, just using you as an example). When the torturer and the player are more clearly separated, it reinforces the narrative that you two players are cooperating for a story, even if one character is 'winning' and the other is 'losing', per se.

The most important thing (after kindness) is how this will help a player with a victimized char progress from one state into another. No-selling is, from what I can see, Denial. Not rich RP with nuance yet defiance, but straight denial. If the player finds themselves in Denial and doesn't process that or even realize it, their char can't move past it.

Now for those involved in torture RP. As a way to get the most out your time, and IMHO have the best time getting tortured, I suggest dipping heavily into Kubler-Ross's five stages of grief. Maybe as a player you're experiencing them too? Let's take a look.

Duke Puke says, oocly: "Torture upcoming, wanna RP through this or prefer FTB?"

.oO(Oh shit. Okay, check all the exits, flee, flee, nope, got a signal? no? this is totally unfair, dammit. This can't be happening.)

DENIAL!! (Not just declaring something as untrue, but the refusal of something requested, whether it's realistic and fun RP, or an IC secret)

Newbert says, oocly: "Cool, whatever, let's rock and roll, boyo."

Duke Puke sets his medical tray down, telling Newbert, "You vill tell us your mona's progia number, von't you?"

RPing denial can be varied and nuanced, dull and obvious, or even crazy fun.

Newbert snorts, "Can't hurt me, baka, I've seen lit'ly e'rythin' ever. Eat a bullet, rimrag."

Or

Newbert shouts, "I EAT PAIN FOR BREAKFAST!"

Newbert thrashes around in chair, straining futilely against his bonds, shouts for help, and keeps shaking his head, muttering, "This can't be happening."

ANGER (If you're angry at the player, maybe that's natural, but not conducive to great RP. Take a breath, relax, play your char as is, not as is ideal. Anger IC can be a blast though. Channel that.)

Duke Puke smashes all three of Newbert's phone's on the ground, laughing maniacally, before telling him, "I have made three wonderful Sicads about you, with so many puns in them!"

Newbert says, rolling his eyes, "Just kill me baka, can't get nothin' off me."

Or

Newbert glares angrily at his broken phone chunks, "One of those was an Eleven! And why is your accent so inconsistent!?" Newbert tries to kick at Duke Puke, "When I vat up, we're gonna find you, and destroy you, somehow."

BARGAINING (Okay, so maybe you don't want details about your bone sounds, the color of viscera, or some weird, twisted semi-creepy stuff. Bargain. As in asking OOCly, "Can we fade the Gore but keep the dialog? Or maybe we could get some xhelp to weigh in on if I could stand X or Y with these boss stats and prior experience?" Always a good go to ICly, too. Mona's # is precious, maybe some cash will settle this?)

Duke Puke removes a brown-spotted, bulbous pear from his medical tray, three blind nice, and a marker, "Prepare for utter agony, Newbert B. Trippen."

Duke Puke proceeds to vividly describe how his High School dance should have played out if God were fair, with detailed monologue, using nice and Mr. Pearface as props.

Newbert says, "Pfffft. Did you hear me? I said PFFFT. That's twice now."

Or

Newbert begs and pleads, offering various reasons why Jennifer might have just not noticed Duke Puke, or maybe Capt. Jock is a nice guy if you get to know him. "What about my locker code, fool? I got fifty stacks in dere. I'll give ya that, you let me go. Chill, yes?"

DEPRESSION (So maybe your newbert is gonna die. It's not to a rat! Or a dog! And all your custom gear and loot is going to a PC! Not an NPC. It may have taken a long time to get your things, but it truly could have been worse.)

Duke Puke cries with his face in Newbert's lap, looking up at him with malevolent eyes, "We were in Loooooove!"

Newbert sighs, "Just kill me dude."

Or

Newbert groans in utter frustration, tilting his sweat-beaded head back to exclaim in a raspy, desperate voice, "Duuuuude, please just fucking kill me. Please! This tangent is clearly not worth the effort and has some serious flaws you'll only notice long after committing to it!"

ACCEPTANCE (Maybe, if you don't get the result you want from your RP partner, you just have to accept they either do not RP this well, your reward shouldn't be hung up on them, or you haven't gone full Sindome cyberpunk torture to the max. Alternatively, victims, sometimes shit sucks. When you finally do get yours, and you're the badass walking down X street, how do you want your victims to react to your RP when the situation is flipped? Give a penny, take a penny. Torture it forward. That kind of stuff.)

Duke Puke wields his corpsteel katana, telling Newbert, "Now that I've wasted enough time, my accomplices are in place, and I can begin phase two."

Newbert hangs his head in acceptance, jerking it up to ask, "Wait, what?" Before the katana falls.

Later...

Pukeface Jones hands Newbert a pear, a phone, and a pair of pants, explaining, "Quick, call yer Mona. Duke Puke has flipped on everyone. we need your help taking him down. Everyone's help."

I hope this had been genuinely productive and helpful and not an unnecessary waste of everyone's time. At the very least, amusing. Delete if just in poor taste. No-selling hurts the person no-selling most, by eliminating their role-play options, the game's quality, and their next sleeve's lifespan.

Everyone keeps talking about these Hostel-style torture scenes but those are super rare and this thread was mostly about run of the mill ass beatings.
I had a scene the other day where I was actually hoping to get more time to be dramatic and sell some injuries, but the entire thing happened in the span of 15 seconds and I couldn't type a single two line pose to RP it out before it was done. I'm not sure if this is standard, i'm pretty new around here. It seems like this can go both ways though.. Sell it, but also give your victim time to sell it.
@BigArg - I dunno if this thread might be helpful or even applicable in your situation, but I got some good tips from other players.

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/open-discussion/theme/combat-scroll-256/

BigArg: If someone swoops in, beats your character to a pulp and is gone before you even regain conscious again, you can still RP it out. Sell the injuries. Maybe not with your attacker but with others. The chummer you call for help. The Doc who patches you up. The input you vent with after the fact. The possible trauma RP that follows the attack.

I think it is important that people keep trying to see that getting owned in a crazy efficient manner usually involves RP leading up to it and is a great catalyst for RP following it. Even if you don't get to throw in all the poses you want before the attack is over.

Tree: Great post. I like how you are providing ideas and actionable things that players might choose to take up and might help them and not just complaining. Thank you. And to be honest, you can go through the same process even if it's a more brief session following a beat down on the street.

As others have said, it's probably a good idea for you to think about how your character would react, realistically, now. BEFORE you are in the middle of the RP being pushed on you. Think it over. Have a plan. It's much easier to accept and deal with these things if you already have a general idea of how your character is likely to react.

I'll have to remind you that people will lie, lie, and LIE to make the pain stop, if they're being tortured. They will lie and pretend that their information is credible in order to protect their friends and family members, for example... people accused of being witches confessing that they're witches so they'd get it over with and die.

However... there are real life examples of people laughing and joking while they're being tortured in real life, or begging them to kill them so it's not so far fetched. I'll begin with aforementioned examples.

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Giles Corey, he was a farmer who got into deep shit, and while he was in a trial back in the 1700's or so, he knew that his fate is sealed, no matter what so he refused to speak a word, no matter what, even with threats of torture.

His only goal was to ensure that the state won't take his land from his family so his son-in-laws would prosper, and so he refused to speak still, the judge finally decided to have him tortured in an attempt to make him speak.

Later, he was stripped naked, then had stones placed on his chest, slowly crushing him and it took days after days.He would only call out "More weight!" whenever the townsfolk demanded he plea, until he died.

So, yes, it's not so far fetched that a character would be so stubborn, no matter what, to ensure that their friends and families will survive, including refusing to give a code out.

Demanding to end their lives has happened in real life, here are examples.

Michel Ney, 'Soldiers, when I give the command to fire, fire straight at my heart. Wait for the order. It will be my last to you. I protest against my condemnation. I have fought a hundred battles for France, and not one against her... Soldiers! Fire! '

Benito Mussolini, "Shoot me in the chest!"

A member of a Dutch resistance movement who orchestrated many assassinations and sabotage efforts against the Germans, Hannie Schaft. She was eventually caught and shot. Two soldiers were tasked in doing so, but the first only wounded her, despite shooting at close range. She told him, "I shoot better than you," before she was killed by the other soldier.

Now, another example, joking while being tortured,

250ish AD, Saint Lawrence, he was tortured by being placed on hot coals, he cheerfully declared, "I'm well done on this side. Turn me over!"

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While I disapprove of no-selling, remember that some average people, like Giles Corey, who was just some random farmer with no soldier training, would be so stubborn to the point of death.

I'd argue that Giles Corey, despite being a random farmer, was not so average. After all, how he dealt with the torture was remarkable enough that it was documented and passed on and people STILL read about it over 300 years later. So I personally see this guy as rather exceptional. Same with the other examples.

Beyond that, if he had lived and was released I am confident that his life would be changed - even if he miraculously returned to full health. Maybe he avoids the people who messed him up. Maybe he moves. Maybe the next time a witch hunt starts to form, he moves out of town in a hurry - whatever the cost.

I will always be a proponent of player agency over their characters but I am also a proponent of flawed, human characters with weaknesses and strengths and who have reasonable reactions to bad things that happen to them. So think about this with your character as it WILL come up. You will get insulted, bullied, beaten, injured and maybe even tortured. How will your character react to these things?

While everyone wants their character to be the baddest of the bad who can deal with anything thrown at them, like Giles dealt with pressing, those are, in my opinion, boring characters. Let them be flawed. Let them fail. Let them betray someone even if they didn't want to sometimes. At the least, let them react to physical pain and mental trauma.

Yes, but you forgot that it's largely confirmed that torture is very unreliable.

https://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/security-military/does-torture-work-research-says-no/

https://www.justsecurity.org/18207/torture-unreliable-inestimably-costly/

https://www.newsweek.com/science-shows-torture-doesnt-work-456854

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/we-rsquo-ve-known-for-400-years-that-torture-doesn-rsquo-t-work/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2017/01/27/torture-science-efficacy/

Now... torture doesn't work, but there's one method that works and it doesn't involve torturing, it's called 'Scharff technique' which involves being a nice guy, shocker, I know but here...

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-fbi-nazi-interrogator-20160610-snap-story.html

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Now, today, torture is mainly employed by cartels and criminal organizations, not to acquire knowledge out of them, but to send a message to their rivals not to fuck with them, resulting into them torturing each others' members out of spite. The sessions are usually recorded, then sent to their rivals, which could work in Sindome but there's one problem.

We don't have the ability to record a footage and send it to our enemies.

Long story short, the only reason why torture is still roleplayed out is because they enjoy employing their depraved fantasies of torturing a person even though they wouldn't think of doing it in real life.

I disagree Beepboop. It is largely hit or miss, but plenty of times the act or threat of torture has yielded desired results. Give it a few tries!
NOW! I forgot to add, if you expect realistic reactions, your character should be suffering from PTSD from torturing or executing people, even black-hooded executioner of the old days of stony castles and the like, suffered PTSD from executing people, even if they're executing hardened criminals, and suicide among them is commonplace because people wouldn't socialize with them, they were pretty much alienated from the community as a whole.

Even as of today, modern prison executioner who executed intimates suffer PTSD, and they undergo treatment.

You should Post that on the suicide with your weapon of choice idea :D
I'm going to be that GM that states. "In Real Life, this-" is not a valid argument for almost anything. This is a fantasy cyberpunk world where people have robot parts and nanos and all kinds of made up things.

The argument 'torture only works in the movies and pretend' is a reason TO torure in Sindome. Because this is the movies and pretend.

I never said torture was reliable. A perfectly legit reaction is to lie your ass off, pour out an excess of information or both. You can even stonewall though I would still urge you to RP out the physical reactions. The flinches, gasps, runts and all that. Even throwing in the occasional joke is fine when it's accompanied with a gritty collection of other reasonable reactions.

Sindome is a cyberpunk RPG. Not an anime RPG (though some great CP stories have come to us in anime formats) or a Looney Toons RPG. I only ask that you stick to theme. :-)

Goddamned dyslexia, wish I can edit my posts to fix the typo mistakes.

Anyways, I suppose that's true that we're 'in a movie' of sorts and I agree that we should react to pain, yes but they should expect to be lied to, a lot because it's oftentimes that people would do so because they're unconsciously trying to avoid getting their characters' lives ruined, unless they're absolutely willing to, even though they wouldn't really be rewarded since it's often that they'll be executed at the end, which will be very rare, realistically speaking, thus some players would feel like they wasted hours of RP only to get nothing, and become angry from being given false information OOCily. And the victims would be angry for being placed in a spot where they couldn't do anything, at all.

So, it's much more reliable to befriend or seduce enemies of the person who hired you to cain, then leak information to them because it's incredibly difficult to tell if they're planning to cain a stranger, namely you, reducing the chances of meta. No torture necessary.

Or, I recommend a GM to get involved and give the victims a bit of 'carrot' post-RP. A mistake in the bank like a fifteen thousand or so being transferred to their bank account, finding better things, promotion, etc, giving them the incentive to spill information ICly, despite their lives being ruined. Both people get to enjoy the RP and be happy. The torturer gets their desired information, the victim gets a bit of reward, a bit of bread crumbs leading to their succession in RP, so they won't feel like they failed, completely. Gradually resulting into more people playing along with torturers with the possibility of being rewarded on the player's mind, just don't reward them too often, or too much.

Just a thought, that's all.

No-selling progresses nothing.

There is no plot that was made better by no-selling.

Every time you stymie someone's efforts -to- progress a story by wanting to be Billy Badass and neutralizing -any- kind of outcome, you're killing a narrative.

Not to double-post but:

"Or, I recommend a GM to get involved and give the victims a bit of 'carrot' post-RP. A mistake in the bank like a fifteen thousand or so being transferred to their bank account, finding better things, promotion, etc, giving them the incentive to spill information ICly, despite their lives being ruined."

GMs don't make obvious tangible rewards for getting fucked over, but they do take note of the players who will take things on the chin. It isn't an obvious exchange, but they do go "Hey, that person got their shit kicked in without being a fuckhead about it afterwards" and the incentive is that they can trust them with cool plot later on, knowing that they won't be a cockhead about an outcome that doesn't favor them.

And other players notice as well. I avoid people who want to antag and needle but give no sort of hooks in return. If I fuck with you and you have a laugh while fucking with me back? I'm going to pull punches. If you die and say some shit like "Well thanks for noticing me enough to kill me", I'm going to pretend you don't exist and you can have fun RPing in a vacuum when other people get sick of it.

Your reward for being chill and narrative driven is... other people being chill and narrative driven.

Not to double-post but:

"Or, I recommend a GM to get involved and give the victims a bit of 'carrot' post-RP. A mistake in the bank like a fifteen thousand or so being transferred to their bank account, finding better things, promotion, etc, giving them the incentive to spill information ICly, despite their lives being ruined."

GMs don't make obvious tangible rewards for getting fucked over, but they do take note of the players who will take things on the chin. It isn't an obvious exchange, but they do go "Hey, that person got their shit kicked in without being a fuckhead about it afterwards" and the incentive is that they can trust them with cool plot later on, knowing that they won't be a cockhead about an outcome that doesn't favor them.

And other players notice as well. I avoid people who want to antag and needle but give no sort of hooks in return. If I fuck with you and you have a laugh while fucking with me back? I'm going to pull punches. If you die and say some shit like "Well thanks for noticing me enough to kill me", I'm going to pretend you don't exist and you can have fun RPing in a vacuum when other people get sick of it.

Your reward for being chill and narrative driven is... other people being chill and narrative driven.

I'm fine with losing and I play along when I get hurt, whatever but other people won't have the same mindset, it's not like the old days. People today want something out of it, and if they don't get that 'something', they won't play along and wind up stopping caring after they got killed over and over again to the point that their enemies become sick of them and stop caring about them, that's when they feel some kind of hollow victory that they get to be left alone and steadily acquire stacks of chyen doing mediocre work until they become some kind of combat god, then force others to RP with them, or kill 'em.

That's something I've noticed in other people, so they need to be 'conditioned', akin to training dogs. Reward little, slowly take rewards away, then stop when they habitually react to things around them.

Or simply don't RP with them, or perm them if you don't want them to reach combat godhood, then perm you out of spite while shrugging pain off and making jokes about buying a cool eyepatch after his eye got torn out, etc.

Bumping this.

Players who get guns pointed to their head, while critically injured, and just grin and say "we live in a society". Or players who die one, two, or three times, and just brush it off while saying "oh lol it's just 5k". Please read this entire thread. Please remember the effort that's gone into giving you a cool death.

In the same vein, the opposite also needs more effort.

Please don't just run up, fully disguised, kill someone without saying or emoting anything for no apparent reason before or after. Put some effort in, take some risk.

I try to always roleplay injuries/threats/danger. But I can also understand why some players don't. Because a lot of other players put very little effort and reason behind killing. I understand there's a veil of safety and sometimes there is no good way of interacting with someone before and after, especially with opportunistic kills/attacks, but please try. We can all have fun getting murdered, robbed and tortured, but only if you let us.

Slightly related, I wish injuries were a little more severe. I want dismemberment, broken bones, burns, impalement, all sorts of stuff. I know you can roleplay all that stuff, but I'd love it to be there mechanically to help drive the RP. Give people reasons to get cyber replacements. To be out of commission for a while. To care about being beaten up.

I'm pretty harsh towards characters who come out of the vats acting like they were just getting a manicure, but to take the most favorable view of that, I don't think there's any specific guidance about the cloning-out process being traumatic (corpse cloning has more direction in this regard in 'help cloning').

While it's up to each player how they react to situations, it might be worthwhile to codify some basic ideas of what characters are experiencing when they die, that might even be offered up as an OOC tip the first time someone hits the red scroll.