Get rid of crowded effect
"I have bad ears, I can only listen to 2 people at once"

Based on conversation in xooc I suggest that we get rid of the 'crowded' effect that puts hearing people's conversations behind a stat check. Immies don't have enough stats to listen to conversations at crowded events or even at smaller hangouts and that is hurting the game.

"watch all" should not be stats-based. In fact, there shouldn't even need to be a "watch all" or "address /all" command at all - it should be the default. As BubbleKangaroo suggested in xooc, there should be a 'hushed' action instead, if someone's trying to be stealthy.

It's making the game seem dead and is actually disincentivizing attending large events. Let's take away the barriers to communication and allow new characters to hear all the exciting conversations that are going on around them without having to have superhuman hearing.

In the event of lowering the threshold of being able to participate in public events (removing the 'crowded' effect from drowning out others), the 'hushed' or 'hush' verb would lower your voice. At this point, it's a stat check of Perception vs. Stealth.

The difference between this and whisper? It's a toggle. No having to shape sentences around the awkward parsing of 'whisper' and allowing 'whisper' to be a situational verb.

Also, why shouldn't more people know stuff about what other characters are up to? It's difficult enough to get into the paydata game as it is.

I may be wrong, but it feels to me like the Perception stat appears to be very much valued IC and OOC. People regularly complain about dips IC and the advice they get is 'Do eye exercises' or something cheesy like that. People definitely invest in Perception. Cutting off low-PCP immies from conversations happening around them is bad for the game as whole, at least that's what I feel.

And mentioning immies, this does remind me of some of my frustrations learning the ropes of conversation in crowds and how to bounce in and out of listening to conversations. There are entire swaths of conversations and RP that can be missed out because the Immie doesn't know to "Watch Slither" for the latest tips and tricks.

For example, if two Greeters want to talk with an Immie in a crowded bar, there may come banter between the two and they address the other Wicks with conversation helping the Immie. But because the Immie has a Perception of T - P in a crowded bar without any knowledge of - watch x and y-, it's lost to the ambiance. The player needs to be specifically told to "Watch Skipper. Watch Gilligan." and "Ignore Jake" since these things do not come natural to a new player.

Bar based ambiance building based around PC's present would allow for a quiet three person conversation at the Drum at 3am, but not when it's rocking a concert venue packed to the walls.

Even moreso in the case of crowded rooms because it hints at depth that is not actually present. There is no later advanced usage of perception checks in crowded rooms to do novel things that makes up for the early limitations, or interesting gameplay of advantages and disadvantages in how players can interact with the crowded rooms. Or any underlying mechanical depth in determining the loudness or quietness of spaces, or how full they are or are not with simulated occupants, that might allow for emergent gameplay.

The game just labels public spaces crowded and characters simply get denied roleplay feedback until they hit a certain stats threshold for the number of PCs present, and then forget the system was ever there at all. So the questions are: How does this system improve gameplay experiences; and also, does it contradict the common argument made in favor of Sindome's very slow character progression, that roleplay itself is not gated by UE?

Seriously, Ratchet? This is not about paydata here. This is not about "eavesdropping" as a "carefully honed skill". It's about basic interaction with an engaging world.

Sindome is, above all, a game. A roleplay-intensive game. And we currently have a problem with player retention. New players are trying us out then quitting en masse. Why is that? In-person communication is inaccessible to low-UE characters – mainly because of the 'watch' command and crowded effect.

There have been complaints on the BGBB about the slow UE progression, and in response people say that UE doesn't matter so much because roleplay is the main point of this game – telling stories about your character and in doing so, collaboratively creating a shared world for people to play in. "Immies have so much potential and can get involved in mostly anything as long as they put themselves out there"...right?

In the past few months, I've talked ICly with many immies who have expressed difficulty making IC friends, difficulty realizing that people are plotting exciting things, difficulty engaging in conversations with multiple people. Some have contemplated leaving the game because they aren't feeling engaged enough with the world or other characters. Also, there's the problem of pubSIC dogpiling on immies who make a foolish statement or a silly mistake and suddenly become the "Main Character" of the entire game. Perhaps if basic in-person communication wasn't gated behind weeks of UE, immies and other characters would interact more in person rather than seeing SIC as the end-all, be-all.

Risikio's example of two Greeters chatting with an immy is a perfect description of how the crowded effect stifles RP. A brand new player might not realize they have to keep typing "watch all" or "watch person" or "address /all" whenever a new person comes in. And even if they know to do that, if their stats only allow them to pay attention to, say, 3 people in a "Crowded" bar. What happens when Person 4 comes in and starts talking about an interesting biz opportunity? The new character will have to sacrifice one of their "watch" slots to listen to this new person and stop paying attention to the other person they were chatting with. If Person 4 starts engaging all the other PCs in an interesting conversation and the immy can't pay attention to everyone, they're just shit outta luck.

It didn't use to be this way. "Watch" wasn't added until...February 2018 by Mephisto:

"Who's Watching? I wanna know what I'm watching! You can only watch people now, and can try to 'watch all'. If there's too many people, some might slip out of mind." (https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/new-game-features/recent-bug-fixes-267. It sounds neat in theory but really it is preventing people from doing what should be a basic, non-negotiable task in a roleplay-intensive game: converse with other people. Any "oldbie" who's playing a character that they rolled before 2018 has never had to deal with this frustrating experience with low UE.

From what I know, Ratchet, you've made a point of giving immies RP and acting in a WCS Greeter sort of role. I'm surprised that you in particular want the game to be more convoluted and difficult to follow for new immigrants.

Can't we put realism aside for the sake of the new player experience?

Also one more thing. You wrote:

"Like it or not, there -is- an IC theme and industry regarding data gathering...I still don't want to see that facet of play reduced by wholesale access to data."

Guess what? There is a risk attached to lingering in bars to eavesdrop on data. The risk is literally "being outside your safe and secure apartment". The risk of physical danger to your person. By being out in the open, in the Mix at least, you could get mugged, pickpocketed, or grappled. People could note your common hang-outs, plant incriminating evidence on you, or even follow you home. It's incorrect that people are getting "wholesale access to data" without any actual work or UE expenditure by loitering in a bar. Think of the alternative – people who just stay in their apartments all day watching cams. Loitering in a bar sparks RP and puts your character in a position to have positive or negative actions directed at them. And if you personally don't want barflies hearing all your secrets, then go talk about your secrets somewhere else.

That's all. Sorry for the long post. Praying that my formatting ends up looking good...

In crowded bars/areas there's obviously a lot of people. There's a lot of noise. But it's all background noise that doesn't really register. PCs (the main characters) get the screen time and are easier for the audience (that's us!) to hear and understand.

My idea is to flip the current meta on its head. What's more cyberpunk than the obviously shady characters in the corner talking in hushed voices? When you can hear everyone but notice that 2+ players are notably not easy to hear it leads to the potential for FUN.

The basic premise is: Perception (Awareness) vs. Stealth to hear (kind of like whispers already).

However, there should be a flip side: Perception (Outlook) vs. Stealth (for those trying not to be heard to realize they might have eavesdroppers)

This creates more skill rolls and allows people to react to being watched in what should be a crowded club. This is counter to what we have now, which is that you won't notice who is watching you, even if they are.

More flavor and opportunity to join RP.

Alternatively we use the paradigm common to online interaction since the dawn of the internet: Avatars in a virtual room together may freely talk to one another. This makes no assumptions about the type of space, the type of interactions occurring, requires no advanced teaching, doesn't assume any spatial metaphors, doesn't make assumptions about how avatars interact, and instead just lets people roleplay without rolling for lung pressure and checking an atmospheric density chart.

So I'm gonna step off from here.

A game presents a confirmation dialogue to a player every time they want to do an action. The mechanic is often annoying to players and adverse to basic gameplay. So someone complains it's (very literally) getting in the way of doing things.

Someone suggests making the confirmation blue instead as a compromise, another says they like having to get good at clicking the confirmation quickly, still another posits a complex timing system to only show the confirmation sometimes.

These are all alternative viewpoints and perhaps valid suggestions, but none actually addresses fundamental obstruction, or answers the question: Why is there a confirmation at all?

Some players may find switching watch targets to follow conversations fun gameplay, but I have to say I think, to me, that is pretty much the lowest bar imaginable for describing something as play.

If we're taking the 'make it realistic' tack as opposed to 'what is fun?' then I would say that a character of average stats only being able to hear, what, five characters? Is nothing close to realistic, which I can confidently say as a human with average stats who pretty routinely interacted with 20 pretty lively students at a time.

At a minimum, a game designed to be at least in part as genre escapism should not make basic existence more laborious than actual living, but rather seek to make the extraordinary into the ordinary, and the impossible into the possible.

If Watch and Address are to justify their existence I believe that they should be implemented along that paradigm. That a character of average abilities and acuities could easily overhear and converse with many, many more people at once, and a character of extraordinary ability with advanced technological acuities would be able to track and parse every conversation in a kilometer.

But of course then there are not so many characters in the whole game as to make that a meaningful ability anyway, which returns back to the question of why even bother having such a system in the first place.

It's getting in the way for a reason, and frankly, I believe the reason it's "getting in the way of RP" is at least in part why it's there. By that I mean it's an RP tool, not a hindrance. I'll explain further below, but for now, I think that saying "it hinders RP" is subjective. We can argue until we're blue in the face that watch and crowded chase a mass of new players away, but there's no real evidence that watch/crowded is to blame in every case, in some cases, or is the -only- issue in any one case. There's only anecdotal evidence at this point from what I've seen above.

I've already said I agree that the system is flawed. It's flawed both because of how it blocks the potential for RP with nothing but a stat gate for governance, and because it shouldn't require you to confirm it by refreshing watch every so often. I do believe these are the two primary causes for issue yes in this thread, yes? Cited from both Svetlana and ox1mm respectively?

Flawed doesn't mean it's a bad idea, and I think the watch/crowded concept is a very good idea, and even in its current state, is a useful tool BECAUSE it blocks interaction. It forces me to pick and choose priorities based on RP I've already had. It forces my attention to be divided in that way so that I can't know what all of my potential rivals are saying to eachother all the time. A lack of local verbiage data is just as much an RP tool as having all of the data, and it arouses so much more intrigue than automatically knowing everything that goes on in the room. That answers your question as to WHY there's a confirmation right now. Or at least why I'd prefer there be one than none at all. It's a fantastic RP tool, but imperfect. I think it needs to be re-examined, adjusted to perform in a more fluid and natural state without EXTRANEOUS inputs (I.E. we should be holding natural conversation to increase the number of characters we can perceive at once, as opposed to typing watch x every few minutes), and implemented anew.

Conversely, I think it would hurt the game and its themes overall if it's removed entirely. As a player, I do not EVER want to see every bit of chatter that's going on in a room unless I'm trying to. It's boring because it removes a crucial part of the human experience. Not knowing something creates tension. It creates emotion for better or worse. It creates divides where we don't pursue the data we're lacking, and it creates opportunity where we do. These are things we as players should be using to inform our RP and develope our characters' outlook/behaviors/choices/etc.

This crowded/watch combination plays such a huge huge part in WHO my character is and how he's evolved, and who his friends and enemies are. He may have evolved into an entirely different archtype if not for this pair of features alone. It's wildly useful to me for character development, remembering theme, and identifying with my character. I think in general, it people make the attempt to examine it and make a RP tool of what they see as RP hindrance, and recall theme, that could help a bit in some (not all) regard to this topic.

Some players may find switching watch targets to follow conversations fun gameplay, but I have to say I think, to me, that is pretty much the lowest bar imaginable for describing something as play.

I'm glad you have a bar for fun. Some of our bars measure different things to gauge what's enjoyable. Doesn't mean it's any lower to us than yours to you. I don't have a particular feeling one way or another about typing watch x y z a lot. It's kind of reflexive at this point, but I agree that it doesn't need to be so tedious if others find it so.

That said, this argument is moot. I already laid out an idea that requires zero confirmation on the player end as far as extraneous inputs. Under the Conversation Que, all you as a player have to do is pose/spoof/talkto/interact with other players. As long as you the player make a consistent effort to RP, (facilitate normal human interaction between other characters) you will maintain and grow access to dialogue with no pesky interim commands - so long as the target of your interaction wants to do the same.

That's right. This system works in a way that allows players to remove you from their Conversation Que simply by ignoring them. So if you want to know what's going on you'll be forced to use your stat checks and watch to keep tabs. No need for another extraneous command like 'hush'.

And on that note, if there's someone you'd rather spy on quietly, the watch command still exists and tracks how many you can watch at once - separate from the Conversation Que. And I wholeheartedly endorse Bubbleroo's suggestion that watch be made into a contested roll with the target, so they have a chance to notice you being nosy.

Alternatively we use the paradigm common to online interaction since the dawn of the internet: Avatars in a virtual room together may freely talk to one another. This makes no assumptions about the type of space, the type of interactions occurring, requires no advanced teaching, doesn't assume any spatial metaphors, doesn't make assumptions about how avatars interact, and instead just lets people roleplay without rolling for lung pressure and checking an atmospheric density chart.

This isn't a chatroom, plain and simple. If you ask me, it's a case study of human interaction in a world gone more wrong than it already is irl. It's one of the primary reasons I still play the game, in fact. To experience and delve into terrible events, mull out how my character might respond to it and why, and how it shapes their outlook/actions over time. How it molds them into who they are. To constantly beat against a wall that never breaks, or to revel in the spoils gleaned by building unbreakable walls. It's frightening and beautiful and fascinating all at once. This is what I mean when I talk about realism in this case. Turning every room into a chat box removes a very human element from every social experience that exists in the game.

At a minimum, a game designed to be at least in part as genre escapism should not make basic existence more laborious than actual living, but rather seek to make the extraordinary into the ordinary, and the impossible into the possible.

I agree, and what I proposed could realistically solve the first part of that statement. As for the second, that's why there's chrome.

If Watch and Address are to justify their existence I believe that they should be implemented along that paradigm. That a character of average abilities and acuities could easily overhear and converse with many, many more people at once, and a character of extraordinary ability with advanced technological acuities would be able to track and parse every conversation in a kilometer.

I agree to a point, and that's why I'm offering solutions that don't involve removing it entirely. I don't know what many many is as a number to you, but Svetlana suggested a few options like 6 or 10. Ten is high. Six seems kind of high. Five might be a good start if we want to play test lowering the bar for entry on watch as a stat gated skill. It's been echoed more than once by now, that there are only so many en masse social situations. Five is kind of average for one place at a random time when 'nothing notable' is going on. Teaching a class of twenty is one thing when none of them are talking except the lecturer. Walking into the classroom five minutes before the bell when everyone is chatting amongst themselves? It's a lot harder to follow, if not impossible.

But of course then there are not so many characters in the whole game as to make that a meaningful ability anyway, which returns back to the question of why even bother having such a system in the first place.

I hope I've sufficiently answered this by now.

Sindome has an extremely difficult New Player Experience, and asks an extraordinary amount of commitment and time and learning from them almost to the point of absurdity. Nevertheless, onboarding new players should be a major priority at this point.

Do you want to play with the same 4 people in perpetuity, or listen to me fill every BGBB thread with derisive commentary from now until the heat death of the universe? If not, and because there's certainly not going to be any extra developer time to add new ease-of-access systems for new players, then at the least we can think about switching off some of the stuff that is making the NPE actively worse.

Cascading checks would be good. After some thought I also think that for this idea an eavesdropper should probably get a bonus to remaining undetected depending on how the checks work.

If the Perception (Outlook) vs. Stealth happened every time one of the hushed parties talked then an eavesdropper would be found out very quickly.

If it was perhaps a contested roll every X amount of time (determined by the stealth of the listener) then an immediate notice wouldn't be as bad.

As a note behind this version of the suggestion: mechanics that lead to player engagement and reaction can only be a plus for the game. As such, any mechanic that points out people of particular interest can only be a boon.

Do you know what I hate? When I'm in a crowded place talking to someone I'm close to and Joe Schmo schmoozes in like I 'm supposed to give a fuck what he has to say. In fact - I might be like 'why are you listening to my conversation, baka? Who's paying you?" That's a pretty good RP opportunity if you ask me and that can happen with or without changes. But it starts only because I know the listener did so intentionally and not because they could blanketed hear every PC conversation in crowd of hundreds at the same time.

One change we can is to make unheard conversations in crowded places more like whispers/phone conversations when you only catch a part of what is being said. Then if the conversation or what you pick up of it - interests - you you can 'watch' them more closely. If this is the case, however, I think that those being "watched' all of a sudden should have a roll to see if they can notice their secret admirer, too. I think the system is supposed to mimic proximity, but it also makes sense that you could understand some parts of conversations from far away. Body language, lip reading, that can all be used to confer the verbiage when you can't actually hear what is going on. And guess what - yes, higher perception SHOULD mean you discern more of your surroundings. That fix addresses a lot of the qualms here while also upholding the usefulness of perception as a stat in social situations, too.