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Keeping your insults on theme
...or why I lose interest in your character.

Recently I've heard more and more characters use terms that not only don't feel CP to me, but they also reflect poorly on your character's stats IMO. So here's a few that have started to make me lose interest in some characters and their RP:

Alpha / Beta: INT-dependent, sure, based on your character's understanding. This comes from the whole concept of alpha/beta wolf social mentality, and it has been disproven. It's false. It's not real. This behavior only arises with wolves who are in captivity or are alone and separated from the pack. An "alpha" is a lonely wolf who has failed to integrate emotionally into society and cannot function properly any more. Calling yourself an alpha (or by association, another character a beta) is an embarrassment to yourself and it shows a strong failing on your character's ability to understand the emotional capacity social strata.

To spin it into an insult: You can base it on the concept of your character losing touch with the dome and hiding out in their apartment -- that would be on theme. Someone so mentally wracked and incapable of ever reentering normal mix or topside society? You're a poor, poor alpha, separated from the pack. An outlier, an outcast.

Incel: Not INT-dependent, but you really want to hurl this as an insult? These folks (men and ladies) have serious emotional and image problems IRL and need therapy and support to undo the anxiety of unhealthily obsessing over things like bone structure, sexual conquest, acting aggressively towards rejection, or being driven to suicide for feeling like nothing more than a cumrag. Using incel as an insult really does a disservice to those who suffer IRL.

Does it make your character sound flash? Not in the least. It makes your character come off as someone who validates the obsessions listed above as legitimate goals to succeed at. It's shallow, and it betrays your character's long-term worth as nil.

Soyboy: Extremely INT-dependent. Soy interferes with women's endocrine systems, not men's. Like, just to break down how impossible it is for soy to affect a man, here's just a few good reasons:

- Phytoestrogens are incredibly weak compared to bioidentical estrogens

- There's a pitiful amount of phytoestrogens in soy

- Oral bioavailability of phytoestrogens is horrendous

- Testosterone blocks any surviving estrogens anyway

- You'd kill your liver before you made any progress

Phytoestrogens do affect women, however. The surviving phytoestrogens bond to estrogen receptors and provide a worse quality estrogen, reducing overall available bioestrogens. Women would have to make it our entire diet to have even a barely noticeable effect, though, due to the reasons above.

Soyboy is not on theme, but soywoman? Maybe.

Cuck: This one is just dumb and petulant IMO, but whatever.

If you want to dig deeper, it comes with racist and conservative connotations. Topside doesn't care about race, and the mix is already oppressed through conservative measures, so it doesn't feel themely for either location.

But personally I just think it sounds dumb.

Autistic, Retarded, Cancer: Not on theme. We have baka, blank, and a whole plethora of words to describe "a foolish person." Pull from a thesaurus if you're desperate. Resorting to words used IRL as ableist slurs just reflects poorly on the coolness of your character.

That's about all I can think of right now. I'm not trying to police anyone's RP. I'm just sharing how I feel.

Thanks for listening.

There is always the tendency for modern 'trendy' insults to work their way into the game, it is kind of borderline bad, but it usually just comes off as kind of lame. Sort of similar to wiggling modern memes into the game. Ideally Sindome should exist in it's own bubble but that just isn't realistic.

I do kind of doubt that anyone really uses these insults seriously though, IC I mean. Unless they are pretty new and unfamiliar with IG insults. I'm not sure if this takes anyone out of the immersion that badly but it is what it is.

Like HumanBean said, this was addressed before. It's more legit to insult your enemies with their class/economic status etc. and these insults are just considered 'lame'. I don't think it's -that- important, you could throw one out there to frustrate or annoy your enemy but it's just usually better to simply call them poor or that they live in the WCS dumpster for example. It doesn't really break my immersion though.
Imo some things can be acceptable if your character doesn't have a CP background. The New Prussian Empire is known for it's genetical/cultural pride, therefore someone who comes from there could technically be racist. Some especially religious characters could even be expressedly homophobic, et cetera. But in general characters from modern mega city sprawls should be CP.

Cuckold (better known as 'cuck') is a really old insult, like, centuries old. If it can be used today, it can be used a century from now as well.

I don't think using 'soyboy' is unthemely, it is however silly. Either way, how many characters in the game are going to know this much about biology, and how many players will have studied that much into it? Insults like these don't need intelligence.

Alpha/beta is used very widely today, despite its origins. People aren't gonna stop using it just because the original concept turned out to not be true. I don't think everyone knows about all of these random scientifical facts you're speaking of, I surely didn't. Calling someone alpha or beta doesn't need you to have a high IQ, that's just silly.

I think as long as people do their best to play by the theme and roleplay seriously, it will be fine. Sometimes real-life things slip in because of habit, and it can be overlooked.

soyboy is totally classist as it implies you're too poor to afford "real" food
Thanks, everyone.

@Ranger & Bean, I'm glad you feel that way.

@Evie, I totally follow what you're saying. I've had plenty of transcendent RP during my time in SD and overall I'm very happy.

I'd say in the past week or two, though, I've been privy to events/conversations/pubSIC/etc. where language above was used in excess to the point where it felt like I was stuck in childish 2019 Discord/Twitter squabbles. (Which, okay, welcome to pubSIC, but can they at least be 2104 Discord/Twitter squabbles?)

I understand that players are people too, and that we all slip back into 2019 from time to time. It embarrasses me every time I catch myself accidentally breaking theme or smallworlding.

@Chrome: Very clever alternate usage! Now if only we could get some gender equality with people also insulting with "soychica" and the like. :)

To be clear, the whole world is Cyberpunk. It's not just Cyberpunk in Withmore with suburbs everywhere else. The things you see in the Dome are happening world wide in slightly different forms. Classism. Devaluation of human life. Corporate rulers (inmost places) or an equivalent group of 'those that have'. Tech being integrated in your everyday life. If is the Cyberpunk future. Everywhere.
Soyboy is used at femboys a lot, isn't it? It used to, I think. There were more femboys around then, though..
@Mobius Of course it is. But there's still places where cloning is frowned upon, or corporations aren't in charge. I usually take these sort of inspirations from the Timeline, where there's clearly less CP progression in some places. Not sure how it is in the Middle East considering most of it is destroyed, but it's probably slowed down there as well.
I've also seen people using 'THOT' on SIC, please don't use it unless you are referring to the Egyptian god.

Moreover unless your character is particularly religious or something, keep in mind most people won't care about promiscuity. Infidelity? Maybe.

I imagine less neon lights and more glass floors.

I do like the idea of the alternate usage for soyboy, but again, hard to separate it from it's real world connotations. It does sound pretty ridiculous though, and I don't know if I can imagine a corpie actually saying that.

I agree that these terms are unthemely, but your reasons as for why seem a little bizzare.

Mostly these things are a bit immersion breaking because they bring the current world into play. Retard is fine because it's fairly neutral, though blank is better. Autistic and cancer... eh. It's unclear that cancer is still a medical issue anyone gives a shit about and autism... doesn't seem like something that would matter in universe either. Alpha / Beta seems fine for posturing since nobody who's ever used those terms has used them with the knowledge of the science behind it, it's just an easy way to say you're the 'big dog' or similar. Incel, cuck, and soyboy, all seem fairly unthemely though since they're -very- associated with modern internet culture, and only really act as insults because of that context. Pretty much anyone and everyone can get laid in Withmore, and probably do, everyone's also interested in all manner of bizzare sex shit, (though cuck as a very specific insult for specific people could make sense), and soyboy... soyboy makes zero sense in the context of the dome because there are plenty of femboys that could fuck your whole world up in a blink of an eye, so the idea of someone being unmasculine because they consume too much soy is just... bizarre.

You know what's more immersion breaking to me? When someone tries to insult you in a really jarring and forced way trying NOT to use any modern terminology.

Honestly, a hundred years ago from -now-, we spoke entirely differently, and it stands to reason we would in the future too, beyond insults. As long as people aren't being extremely overt or at least putting a little twist on it? Let it ride. I think this is so case by case and person to person, that it's going to boil down to personal preference and bias, which is an uphill battle.

I think maybe we're looking into insults a bit too much, maybe it doesn't need to be policed or legitimized? Insults are, at their core, fueled by rage and are very rarely based on anything more than that. The theoretical background for them is almost always irrelevant.

I'm mad at you, so I shout some shit at you that I think is going to hurt your feelings. That's about as far as the line of logic goes when slinging mud.

A great way to deal with people slinging insults would be to hire a solo to shoot them in the face or drag them to your character beat half to death so you can lord over them. Takes an IC problem and deals with it IC. That way, it doesn't matter if their insults are 100% CP to the bone, because they're too busy pleading for mercy to insult your character anymore.

The first time I heard 'soyboy' was in Sindome. I have legit no idea what 'incel' is and I've never heard of it before, but I'm probably going to Google it now.

I explained above why cuck (or cuckold) is technically fine, because it's already centuries old. Alpha/beta works but it works better in the bedroom rather than public insults.

@JMo Agree with you there.

I think if you swap out "cancer" for "Ebola", you come across like a mom trying to dab to be relevant as well.

Some other things to remember when insulting specifically on SIC.

From help SIC.

"Messages on the SIC, both public and private, appear as something akin to thoughts in your head. You assign them a voice and a gender based on the context of the message and your perception of the person messaging you. If you believe you know the person (keeping in mind SIC aliases are not locked and can be taken over by someone else) your mind may assign the message a voice and tone consistent with how that person sounds in the real (IC) world. It's your mind though, and you are in control."

This means that you do not hear the insults as text, you are not reading these, these are essentially telepathy. So the grammar, or lack there of, is not something you should really ever critique unless it's an incredibly obvious accent being posted. Word choice sure, but if someone is dyslexic, or otherwise screws up in a way that wouldn't be noticeable speaking, it's probably not gonna be obvious in SIC.

Some other things, SIC alias hopping, has been said a couple times, that there's no reason to "know" or really even guess with alias hoppers, unless you are able to pick something out, a tell of somesort, like them using a key you know is limited, or you use a SIC tracker to figure out who is behind the hop. As there are 77 million voices constantly bleeting in a background buzz, and SIC chatter is basically just what comes to the surface.

Retard is an insult that is a purely modern form of the word rooted in modern medical science and you are already seeing its decline in our world. Idiot might be a better one, as it's more classic. Or possible addled, slow, just pull out a thesaurus. Retard is relatively unthemely, and offensive to some players OOCly.

I've never seen someone call a Femmeboy or some of the legitimate transgendered characters I know of, tranny, and I'm happy about that. This is something we're going well, in a future where you can get gene-augments relatively cheaply becoming a man, Or becoming a chick is gonna be relatively an easy process for the rich, and there would probably be grants for the poor to do it too.

Soyboy is utterly off theme, just stop it.

Soyboy means you drink 'milk', not alcohol. That's an old one around the dome.

I'm not trying to police anyone's RP. I'm just sharing how I feel.

Soyboy is utterly off theme, just stop it.

Pick one.

Did they actually use it before the modern use on the web? Sorry I'm not an oldbie. Soyboy is used RL in the context of basically degrading masculinity in the same way that Cuck is in some circles. And Soy is so prevalent in game that I wouldn't see it as an insult that would stick around.
Did I fucking say that chrome? I'm actually trying to police people RP here because frankly, there's some off themeliness going around, and it's relatively fucking disgusting to see people try and project some modern trends into a game where these.trends would be utterly obsolete.
Yes, That's exactly what is meant by /any/ insult implying you would drink a non-alcoholic drink over an alcoholic one.
Chill.
I find it sort of insulting that 'autism' is used as a substitute for 'retard' when it doesn't have anything to do with intellectual deficiency unless it is extreme. Asperger's is a type of Autism, for instance. And both myself and my brother have it diagnosed. I don't think Autism would be an irrelevant medical term in a hundred years, but it's silly as an insult.

@RheaGhe Again, 'soyboy' is something I never even heard of until Sindome, so I don't connect it to modern slang. I even learned 'femboy' from Sindome, as most people outside it seem to use the word 'twink' (though there's obviously differences).

@JMo I absolutely agree with you. As an example, in modern day Sweden, we're an incredibly tolerant society (some might say ridiculously so). But one of the most common insults is still strongly homophobic, yet people use these when they get really angry, even though most of the time, the other person isn't gay at all. It's used in the same way as 'shithead' or whatnot. And that's what insults are, they're not logically thought out. They're slurs that you blurt out in the heat of an argument. Unless you're trying to roast someone whilst unemotional, of course.

Soy has specifically been used around Sindome since at least 2001, when the Vanilla Silk was introduced so a kid character had a choice at the bar. We had an original Soyboy, literally.
I think as long as people do their best to play by the theme and roleplay seriously, it will be fine. Sometimes real-life things slip in because of habit, and it can be overlooked.

This.

It is what it is. You can’t police rp to fit your view if it isn’t rule breaking. You will just be spinning your wheels in the mud. Adapt and overcome.

@Grizzly666

I got quoted in a positive way! Yay. :)

Glad it got noticed, but it's essentially what @JMo is saying, as well.

That's amazing. And I actually find it nice to hear that. From the outset though without knowing the story, this is the definition of soyboy in my head when I hear it, and why it comes off as off theme. From urban dictionary.

"Slang used to describe males who completely and utterly lack all necessary masculine qualities. This pathetic state is usually achieved by an over-indulgence of emasculating products and/or ideologies.

The origin of the term derives from the negative effects soy consumption has been proven to have on the male physique and libido.

The average soy boy is a feminist, nonathletic, has never been in a fight, will probably marry the first girl that has sex with him, and likely reduces all his arguments to labeling the opposition as "Nazis".

See also: cuck, beta/omega male, orbiter, kissless virgin, male feminist"

If it was being used as a reference to someone refusing to drink alcohol I could see it. But I've seen it used outside that context, and that's where it's not themely. To avoid Soy in this world would probably be pretty close to impossible except for the very very very rich.

But enough about Soyboy in Sindome vs RL usage of Soyboy. I'll concede that point, as it's relatively irrelevant to what I was saying. Which is to offer advice on avoiding unthemely stuff I've seen on SIC over the last few days and weeks. Namely alias hopping being ignored, people critiquing others over grammar and sentence structure, and not like genuine screw ups in word choice. Small worlding basically happening with that kind of stuff.

And Chrome, I am chill until people shove words I didn't say into my mouth, that were literally the opposite of my intentions. And refuse to address portions of my argument that are valid to instead focus on the one that isn't.

I will never stop finding the most creative ways to call somebody a fucker.
I once got told I misspelled 'Konnichiwa' over pubSIC.

1st off, how do you misspell thoughts?

2nd off, Japanese words tend to have different ways to spell them in the Latin alphabet, because they're not based off of our alphabet. Similar to languages like Russian, etc. Spelling is discretionary.

It does however annoy me when people use the way SIC works as an excuse for their horrible writing. Some players recently are writing without punctuation marks, and all in lowercase. That's not dyslexia, that is textspeak.

You guys are cherry picking.

None of these insults are inherently unthemely because they can be contextualized to themely concepts.

The only exception would be the autistic/retard/cancer terms. In a world where mass cloning is easily available, these are issues of the past. Cancer is curable so is other previously deadly and/or permanent ailments. The only exception would be if you were a poor Mixer unable to afford treatment. In which case you can spin that into a cool insult referring more to your social class and lack of money.

Was a general statement directed to everyone involved in the discussion, Rhea. Because some people, like yourself, are trying to police theme when it's not your place.

Just like all of the insults being discussed, being offended is on your end.

Most of these insults I've seen used only in pretty specific circumstances where there just isn't really a better word to describe how someone's acting. This mano wants to kill this chica because she refuses to date him? 'Incel' cuts right to the heart of it. It's not as creative as finding a theme way to nod at what you're trying to get across, sure, but a lot of this thread reads as 'I take insults extremely personally, please stop' more than it does an exercise to come up with creative alternatives.
Even if soy did have a noticeable affect on men (it doesn't), I don't see why it would be used as an insult in 2104, where (from what I've been told) feminine boys, crossdressing, etc, are generally seen as pretty normal things and not things to be ashamed of.
Because soy is a cheap and crappy alternative to real meat. So a "soy" anything would be a cheap and crappy alternative to that thing. Seems legit to me.
As a note, autistic is meant to be an insult because you're saying someone is incapable of 'reading the mood'. They're deficient. Same thing with calling them retard.

Insults are meant to hurt. Also retard is a pretty generic insult, I'd imagine would last for another couple hundred years, but as I said, blank is better.

We might do well to have a thesaurus or similar on the main website for people to browse for slang and stuff.

Maybe like our own version of an urban dictionary.

Oh, perhaps a slang thread! I'll start one.

There's already a slang thread, chombatta.

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/open-discussion/theme/cyberpunk-slang-100/

Unless you were being sarcastic, in which case I look like a bit of a twat now.

Keep in mind that globalization is more of a thing in the SIndome World than ours. Cultures and languages clash a lot. Sometimes all you need to do to make an like retard more cyberpunk is get a bad Japanese translation and start using the word in context. Japanese thrown in to English is a common hallmark of Cyberpunk.

Same can be done with other languages - especially in the mix. Find out what the Spanish speaking world calls a cuck and start using that. Or what Russian speakers call a femboy. Or just take two words that sound harsh and slap them together. NullSkull maybe for idiots (best I could come up with in ten seconds). Be creative and own the word and it might spread.

SIC has traditionally been a shitshow and has only gotten worse as our player-base has expanded. There's no good way to ICly police it and the best that can be done is have players hold themselves to a higher standard. Personally, I don't mind the insults but rather the asinine commentary on all things sexual that make me feel like I'm playing an FPS with teenagers instead of a cyberpunk game with mature human beings.

If you expect more from SIC, lead by example. A lot of the slang present in Sindome started as just one person using it...and it isn't just slang - the entire game culture is player led. If you all take a moment to stop complaining and simply focus on doing better - we will all prosper.

Alternatively, you can always turn SIC off as well.

As for feeling personally targeted by insults, I think we should adopt an escalation of force doctrine. Do you need to lay into a day old Immy with some repugnant nonsense? Probably not. Do you want to shatter the heart and soul of that asshole who doesn't seem to know when to shut up? Seems legit.

If you take your queue's from others, listen to what they have to say, and then return in stride - that's a solid baseline. For instance, I've been playing with Grizzly for a very very long time. He's hilariously cruel at times. I love it and will be hilariously cruel back. Would I do that to a newbie or another player unwarranted? No.

SIC really makes or breaks the ambience of Sindome. It's also the first impression people get of our game. If we all just quietly agree to aspire to get more out of it - we will.

Thanks Johnny for the history lesson! (Guess the 2019 equivalent is just some horrible butchering.)

@Kiwi: "A mano that wants to kill a chica because she won't date him," oh you mean a corpie? ;) There's plenty of themely classist ways to strike back without using the non-classist term "incel," which deals with internalized body/self-esteem issues. Think up something powerful and memorable! Someone insults you? Instead of calling them an incel, show them your fire: "Says the junior whose best lay was getting your dick caught in the lev door."

@Grey0: Nice insult!

@Jmo: A great way to deal with people slinging insults would be to hire a solo to shoot them in the face or drag them to your character beat half to death so you can lord over them. Takes an IC problem and deals with it IC. That way, it doesn't matter if their insults are 100% CP to the bone, because they're too busy pleading for mercy to insult your character anymore.

At first I thought this would be a nice idea, but that would be bleed in, where my desires affect my character's actions.

Bleed: https://nordiclarp.org/2015/03/02/bleed-the-spillover-between-player-and-character/

I wouldn't chase this angle in-game because my character has little to no interest in hiring a solo to crease some baka whose insults aren't even directed at my character or anyone my character cares about. ("Then make your character get interested/involved?" Unfortunately I don't have enough hours in the day to even begin on that.)

I know I subtitled this thread, "or why I lose interest in your character," which makes it sound like a pervasive bleed issue, but it's not. Only once have I had to completely back off from a character due to OOC language issues, and I handled that in an IC manner.

For me this is strictly an OOC topic. It's nothing I would ever allow to improperly affect the decisions and actions of my character. My character is still going to RP with you and continue the story, even if I'm silently frustrated behind the screen. ;)

It's why I made this thread: to talk about the theme as I saw it, and I welcome the support. Thank you everyone! :)

Amen Reefer, well said.
In a game / community where I've been scolded for saying 'dude' and staff accosting me --at length-- over xhelp for slang as innocuous as 'baby' the fact that cover is being given BY STAFF for 'soyboy' which is a mega-recent slang/insult (and has origins and prevalence from alt-right circles very particularly) is the funniest shit I've seen in a while, just because soy exists in the game. Can we be discerning adults here for two seconds, if we're going to police theme with any kind of maturity and nuance and a straight face?

The amount of 'WELL ACTUALLY'-ness being used to wave off stuff that is clearly a lot of people either lazily (best case) or intentionally (worst case) using current-day insults and meme IC'ly, whether it's bleed or they're just trolls with no imagination.

If you want to meme on ya bros about cucks and autism and soyboys and NPCs, go back to 4chan. If you want to RP like an adult with an imagination, do better. It breaks immersion, and it just makes people not want to RP with you.

On the terms retarded/autistic and also venturing into racial, gendered, homophobic and trans slurs used as insults in game and whether or not they're themely (since class versus class rather than other current day social issues):

I'd just say I wish people would use creative terms they come up with on their own rather than relying on slurs that are actively in use and target people today based on who and what they are. i usually see the standard 'it's a game' pushback in some form or the other for that request, so I'll try to explain my case.

This is a game, yes. People use games as a method of escapism from tiring, exhausting, troubling stuff that happens in the real world. Whether roleplaying games, shooting games, card games, you get the point. We all want to experience the ability to escape from reality from time to time. So not only are some insults not current with the theme necessarily, but they also steal the ability to experience escapism for people who hear certain slurs/insults based on who they are as a person.

Being cruel and insulting is super fun in-game, wouldn't it be more fun if you went all out and came up with your own new insults and string of words to crush someone? Or at least stuff in @slang?

@crashdown Actually, it's advised NOT to play if you're not in the mood to roleplay your character properly. Being angry or upset and escaping to Sindome isn't gonna make things easier. It's gonna make the game more frustrating, because it's a difficult game.
I think perhaps you should re-read my post? Escapism isn't only when you're angry or upset. I said escapism is used to essentially forget the troubles and harshness of the world, aka lose yourself in fun. Unwind. Decompress.

People play games to have fun. You don't need to be angry or upset to want to have fun. Nevertheless, regardless of what kind of mood you're in, having someone randomly pop out a current day slur, and isn't really themely, instead of coming up with something more appropriate for 2104 or their own actual newly created insult is rather jarring and pulls people out of escapism.

That's the point.

I get you. But the harshness of Sindome is even worse, the only thing making it better than reality being that it is fiction. And like I've explained further up on this thread, in some cultures or religions there will still be homophobia/racial prejudice, it's just a lot less common. It's not always unthemely and shouldn't be taken to heart OOC.
"On the terms retarded/autistic and also venturing into racial, gendered, homophobic and trans slurs"

The only ones I've seen (with any frequency) have been cuck and autistic. The former being used when people have fit the bill. And the latter? Well... Bit more of the same. Horribly fitting and horribly specific wordage for behaviors that are ingrained in the zeitgeist.

Incel I've seen sparsely recently, and again, rather fitting cases. I'll concede that it's a very modern term, having been born from the internet. But I'd implore players to find better motivations and better targets for their conflicts than "someone wouldn't fuck me" for fear of looking like a cyberpunk Elliot Rodgers.

As far as any actual -hard- slurs, I haven't seen a one in recent times and I'm actually quite proud of the community for it. The most honest and well worded posts against certain words being used having come from people like Evie, citing how it effects them, and I'll be adjusting my RP accordingly. If anyone wishes to do the same, I invite them to, but I understand that laying that kind of emotional baggage out there isn't cozy, so please don't feel there's an ultimatum coming from me.

I just think we can all agree that a bit of pathos and empathy can go further than trying to argue and nitpick soft science and opinion.

Ehhh, I've seen the word 'trap' thrown about a bit. I can't really act like it's entirely people's falt for using it, because a lot of people aren't actually aware that it's a slur for trans people, but it'd be nice if people at least took that into consideration.
I agree that the community has done well recently with bringing down the hard slurs. Occasionally they still pop up, some with more frequency than others, but it's gotten progressively better in the last three and a half years. I'm also not interested into getting into the 'behind the science' kind of reason for why not to use an insult.

In many ways my post is similar to explaining how one can be affected by seeing modern day slurs. It isn't a fun or rewarding experience to suddenly, for example, to see a random f*g thrown out in the game. If you're someone who is part of the community in which that slurs is targeted frequently by a lot of hateful people, seeing this out of nowhere can be a jarring situation a lot of times. For people whose characters use it, it isn't for me to assign reasons as to why their character is choosing this word. I've my own thoughts, but those are assumptions. I'm not going to tell those people not to use those words, I won't address it via local ooc. I will use moments like these to ask people to think over why their character uses those kinds of modern day slurs, though, and if they as a player realise how that might impact a person who unfortunately has to endure real life hate associated with those terms.

Ultimately though it's a decision in those players' hands, all I can do is paint a picture about how modern day slur usage of many sorts is something some players probably experience frequently outside of the game too; so, encouraging creating new and original insults is a great opportunity potentially. I'm not interested at all in dictating to people how to play their characters, and it's easy enough for me, or any of us, to limit my character's RP with characters who do stuff that is jarring in the ways described.

So please don't take my post as a condemnation, a dictation, a demand or even filled with anger or being upset. Merely it's me taking an opportunity to address a matter and hopefully see a few people think about a perspective maybe they didn't consider beforehand because it simply doesn't affect them.

Also I totally agree with you, HolyChrome, re: incel and conflict motivation on the topic of rejected sex, but that's likely another topic entirely and I wouldn't want to derail this conversation. (but if you started one I'd totally give a lot of thoughts)

To weigh in here: never heard soyboy before. Soy is kinda cp and it rhymes which is probably why people use it. But if it has a modern connotation, maybe we just don't use it?

The rest are just lazy. Use cyberpunk slang. We have plenty of it.

Punctuate your sic and poses and speaking.

Treat people's arguments in good faith and do not flame each other on the BGBB.

At the same time, for males there's the shortdescs 'fag' or 'queer'. The game sort of acts like you shouldn't personally take offense. For female characters, there's shortdescs like 'dyke' or 'bitch'. What I would assume from this is that 'fag' isn't more of a slur than 'gay' is, in 2104 Withmore City. I've seen loads of people use 'dyke' without offensive meaning, in-game. Since sexual freedom is so common in Sindome lore, calling someone a dyke isn't offensive, but possibly presumptious. Maybe some catholic/other characters out there will use these in the 'slur' kind of way, but most people won't.
+1 Reefer
Fag here, I think the word 'fag' is adorable, and it long lost its shock value.
I'll mirror Slithers thoughts here - be inventive in line with the theme.

That said, 'incel' did not exist 10 or potentially even 5 years ago. Stop using it, it has no basis whatsoever within the Cyberpunk theme and is immersion breaking.

Also can people shut up about dealing with RP problems by IC means? It's an OOC issue. It gets solved OOCly.
Of all things here I've heard cuck the most, and it bugged me to no end. I just pretend I never heard it because I refuse to have a single scene dedicated to it and context-wise it just breaks my suspension of disbelief entirely.

Every time I hear it it just gets dropped out of nowhere and it shatters the RP into a million different pieces. I have to re-focus into playing a character. Deal with it ICly? Sure, I could do that, except, why would I?

(when i say i ignore it, i mean i don't talk about how unthemely it is using ooc command.)
(or try to tackle it icly on the choice of the word. sorry about the triple post.)
Just gonna mention that I noticed someone pubsiccing that 'Splicers have a suicide rate of 49%' or something to that effect.

It was pretty obviously a reference to transgender suicide, and it came across as poor taste and crazy immersion breaking since it was immediately obvious what the person was going for.

It's not the first time I've noticed this either, people will kinda slide OOC stuff in by acting as if it's an IC issue. It's sorta whatever I guess most of the time since a lot of the arguments would cross over, but in the case of the splicer example I just referenced, there's no IC reason why that would be the case, so it sorta makes it obvious that it's just someone trying to dank meme.

Noticed that as well, marmalade.

Anti-splicer sentiments have been hilariously themely to me.

People hijacking it to make racist/homophobic/transphobic/etc analogies hasn't been.

It's a shame we have a legitimate themely discrimination movement in the game and people have had to inject it with that kind of shit.

Yeah, that's one of the few things that's actually made me wince when I saw it. Since I'm actually trans, too, it just seemed like a really fucking dickish thing for someone to do. I don't care if it was meant as a joke or whatever, it's fucking disgusting.
This has bothered me for a while. Recycling contemporary bigotry with a veneer of theme just feels like an excuse to act like a bigot frankly. The word-for-word Nazi propagandising along with thinly veiled transphobia and racism borders either lazy world-building or outright OOC offensiveness in almost every instance I've encountered it. Genderfluidity is super themely (Magnetic Dog Sisters for example, and it's ridiculous that anything like modern racism (let alone the archaeo-racism parroted on SIC) would exist in such a complex multi-cultural melange as Withmore. Does it make sense that there would be an undercurrent of transhumanism anxiety? Absolutely. Technophobia as well. Does it make sense to quote Mein Kampf to that end? No. In fact it's totally at odds, given the interrelationship of Fascism and Futurism.
To expand on that thought, in most cases I've seen this 'Splicerism' it also seems to run contrary to the classicism which I think forms the most meaningful division in the theme and ought to inform all other elements.

Biomodding is one of the ultimate overt symbols of status and wealth, it doesn't make sense at all that you would get salarymen complaining about animal biomods -- that ought to be the telltales of transhumanist hyperwealth. They should aspire to such distinctions!

Whereas it makes complete sense for the mix to be hostile to the symbols of class which are denied to them, just as you have an undercurrent of anti-clonism in the classes which cannot afford them. However would the mix care that some 'pure' element of humanity was being tampered with? In a place where half the population is more metal than meat? Maybe with a small minority, but the practical in-game issue has always been that these characters are necessarily marked as corporate, which I think is the most appropriate way for such discrimination to manifest.

Not chiming in on people getting carried away with their insults, but I think splicism is totally themely and to try and dictate to people which side of that that they should or shouldn’t be on is a little out of our lanes.

Biomodding isn’t exactly the ultimate flex of status. Get a Ferrari and some diamondweave ya plebs.

I mean, my main issue was with the incredibly fucking obvious transphobia (e.g "splicers have a 49% suicide rate"), personally. Other than that, the whole splicism thing seems fine to me.
I'm not dictating anything, this is a discussion on theme. Biomods are off-limits to mixers regardless of wealth, it's not unreasonable to suggest there is a class element at play there.

Though I would also echo Baguette, and I think their point is the more appreciable and relevant argument.

0x1mm is dead on with their assessment. Being splicist is fine. Hell, being racist is fantastic. Just make it make sense. Nobody in the current time period is gonna be hung up on black vs. white American centric racism. However, you might have a character that grew up in French-Austria, and they naturally hate anyone from the New Prussian Empire, or something similar to that.

Basically, don’t just lazily drag current day RL prejudice into the game. It’s not themely in the slightest. It’s just cheap, and more often than not immersion breaking.

I agree on the class element but I think other avenues are open as well.

As with all hate, most of it isn't logical and "simply" comes from people being different.

I think it's a stretch to say that NOBODY in the entire world is going to still have some old values left - be it racism or whatever.
If the racism or whatever was OOC, I'd understand. But I think effectively telling players how to RP and what their characters should be like just because you think racism wouldn't exist in 2104 is a pretty bad thing to do.
It's more about etiquette in this case, Ranger.

Exceptions to generalized statements aside, I think the key point everyone is making here is not directly mirroring modern issues because they're divisive and there's no way of knowing if people are going to share your sense of humor on it. Satire is subtle and always includes a wink, which many of these examples don't have.

I inject a lot of prejudice into my character, but always try to make it a bit cartoonish and silly. That wink I mentioned. I highly doubt anyone thinks me, as a player, shares those sort of views IRL. Which is the issue people are trying to highlight. Those thinly veiled, targeted OOC views.

Hate on splicers, but don't make it a parallel with anti-trans jargon.

Hate on Mixers, but don't mirror modern racist rhetoric.

Hate on corpies, but--- Actually, just hate on corpies.

I disagree HolyChrome. Most hate does actually make some kind of sense, even when its nonsensical. Hatred serves a purpose, which is what 0x1mm illustrated fairly well. To respond to Rangerkrauser as well, the point is more about lazy role-play rather than dictating what can and can't be said.

Specific things direct back to real world issues. For example, the 49% thing. That's an oft recited number to justify not acknowledging people with gender dysphoria. When used in regard to splicers, it only makes sense out of context but makes zero sense in context. Why, in context, would splicer suicide rates be so high? There's no reason to believe it would be. It's an entirely choice thing, done mostly for aesthetics, in universe. It just flat out doesn't make sense. The only point in saying something like that is to break the fourth wall and reference transgender individuals out of context.

It'd be like walking around saying that splicers should get 3/5ths of a vote. Now... that could make sense in context, if splicers were 3/5ths their splice to human ratio, but they're not. You could certainly use it as inspiration, to say that their vote should only count as much as their human half, (does Withmore even have a voting system?), and that would make more sense, and be much more themely.

Hell, if your character would have reason to be at least passingly familiar with US history of that time period (there are plenty of people in the world who have passing knowledge or otherwise of ancient events, it's not completely unbelievable to think that would holdin the future), it would make sense to maybe make a passing reference (ie: 'Yeah, whatever, your -three-fifths- of a vote is noted, splicer.'), and that would be fine too.

So really all that's being advocated for here is for players to think about why their character is saying something offensive, and why that specific thing. Does it make sense in context? Why does your character hate Splicers? What would they actually say based on this prejudice?

I mean, I keep mentioning the transgender thing, but I've heard people on pubsic essentially treating splicers as Jews (ie: talking about them 'controlling the banks and media', etc) which is themely in some senses, but also sorta just came off as like, yeah. We get it, you're meme-ing about the Jews. Very clever.

Tl;dr: It just kinda takes the immersion away when you're lazy about things. Make your prejudices make sense.

I think the bank stuff makes sense because it's prejudice more aimed towards corpies, or the richest or flashiest of the corpies. I didn't really take it as a jew-joke, personally, but people might disagree with me.

I however agree with Rangerkrauser on one matter, that is you can't say every sense of bigotry is gone a hundred years in the future. There's -always- going to be prejudice, the more different something is to you, the more prejudice there is. There's still religions that dictate things about certain people or certain sexualities, and there's still cultures that have prejudice toward 'less pure' genetics (New Prussian Empire has pride over their genetical and cultural heritage, mentioned under 'Timeline'). I've also seen characters in-game be somewhat insultive toward Russian culture, or Japanese, et cetera. It's totally legitimate, it's just different. And a lot less commonplace. Also, I guess when people are bigots, it's usually on a much milder scale, and more for jokes than anything.

@BeepBoop I'm glad you agree! The word doesn't really have to mean anything bad, especially when it's literally implemented in the game as a 'shortdesc'. I personally like the word, and most of my gay friends use it personally.

I've read the arguments placed forth. Isn't there some rule where it straight up says:

"Don't write allusions to real-life hate and bigotry."

If not, I'd be surprised. Taking marmalade's example, I would immediately xhelp to call out someone who used the racist term "three fifths." There's just no excuse for that. It doesn't make your character look cool, it makes you look racist.

I don't know that term, personally. But honestly, makes no sense since there's no voting in Withmore, I think. Corporations rule the city council.
I would say this has spiraled a bit into the upside down.
In 2104, basic etiquette is upside down.