Feedback thread.
I feel like the discussions we had and the issues raised previously have been somewhat overlooked.
With these nerfs to ponchos, I thought there was going to be improvements to other disguise mediums. To me this looks like a nerf over everything, which to me will not change the poncho meta that it seemed most people had an issue with.
So I am really confused as to why these changes took place at all other than to make hiding your identity when doing things harder for everyone.
I don't know I just thought they'd be more feedback on these changes here and surprised there isn't presently.
As Slither has said, lets see how this goes.
I'm a bit confused by what you mean by this in the improvements notes: "That puts a wig OR contacts on par with shrouds/ponchos in terms of how much 'disguise' they offer from a system perspective."
Also, ChatGPT-powered NPCs sound amazing.
It was also pretty strange hearing verbatim repeats of rumors from every NPC. Especially over and over and over and over again. I personally feel like the variation is a plus to immersion.
Good points
-makes it more accessible to everyone
-reduces the worry of loss due to its cost reduction
Bad points
-doesn't change the cost lost on nanos (which have no second-hand market)
-reduces the reward for those going after chromed-up targets
-potentially damages the viability of the second hand market
I think in isolation this is a good move, but chrome's price being reduced yet after markets not being adjusted may have a knock on effect across a lot of RP and conflict avenue. And I am not sure hard chrome specifically was as big a loss issue as Nanos were because you can often buy or get your chrome back for free. Nano's on the other hand will always be the same price and still require the 24 hour recovery time, making for a bigger investment and bigger loss.
This is however a good step in the right direction.
We've had continued, systematic price-reductions on everything related to going and beating the crap out of people and killing them, but the price of services continue to inflate, so I'm not sure to what extent this will have the desired outcome.
As someone who does enjoy PVP, I love the change. I don't know if it'll convince more people to get their toes wet. I think the most successful systems in doing that to date have been the systems that allow for gear replacement. While similar in nature to price reductions, there's that feeling of a safety net of getting some 'functional' gear immediately off the vat to get you back into the game. I think the psychological aspect is a key component of getting people to step outside their comfort zone willingly.
I am not sure many are aware at how bad this actually is. There is now chrome with profit margins so tiny that it costs more in travel than the profit made from the installation.
This also hits the second hard market even more given there has not been an adjustment for the installation fee's of second-hand chrome.
There is now chrome that costs less to purchase new and have it installed, than it costs to just cover the installation fee for a second hand installation (excluding cost of chrome).
I know these changes were mean well, but I feel like they were made without looking at the larger picture and interwoven effects this has outside of simply the prices on the price board.
This job path, has seen a consistent reduction in reward while the expectation of knowledge on the systems ooc has increased and the skill investment still remains deep.
The illegitimate path of this type of work could also see a negative impact due to the installation charges of second hand chrome vs the cost of simply buying in straight up brand new and the potential reduction in the viability of second hand chrome in general.
As an aside, when a bar tender gets more in tips than a cyber surgeon gets for surgery something needs looking at.
Reducing the price of goods doesn't alter the income, so you're going to net result as more mixers having more money (since they die and regear the most frequently.)
Mixers are already demanding absolutely insane prices for everything from delivering a cigarette lighter to killing people. Mixers being even more cash flush because of continued price reductions doesn't help this problem, it gives it more fuel to grow.
Does that make sense?
I think cybersugeons should get paid a much improved baseline salary, and maybe a per diem for labor on operations, instead of a % of the sales. One kay per labor per install or X per session, or something.
This makes it so that you can control what chrome prices cost and what cyberdocs make independently of one another and addresses some of the issues from yesteryear where cyberdoctors were nearly as bad of chyen printers as chemists. (Although the MDK rate has tanked, so I know this isn't true currently.)
I would think that each surgery has a difficulty rating.
In terms of pay, each surgery should have a flat costed based on the difficulty of the surgery. Regardless of the second hand or first hand nature of it. A cost calculation based on the challenge rating, and the rating should be ranked something like Low,med,high skill.
Breaking down cyberware installations to these IC present skill rankings allows for a few things.
Rookie docs
docs
expert Docs
With that you can allow a lower bar of entry for minor surgery and a high bar and higher earnings for higher skilled and trusted surgeons.
It always baffled me how the cost was flat for second hand installs. As it is basically valuing the surgeons skill as the same for simply pressing a button to doing completely neural surgeon.
Anyway, just my suggestion to perhaps go to fixing this, because at present it feels like the path of that archetype is needed by the game, yet is very uninviting and not particularly rewarding.
Ultimately though, I think that these changes will hopefully open up conversations that lead us into a much better place for this achitype and cyberware in general. It needs to be brought inline with the investment level that is required for it.
I will say, if this is the first step in an economy squish overall, then I think this is a good if currently jarring step.
Reducing the overall cost of getting fully geared up was the goal. Plenty of people can just get more cyber with the same amount of money which should offset some of the changes. And cyberdocs and their clinics install rates and other things are all IC and that can be addressed ICly if people want to.
I appreciate the feedback but I also think that we need to see how things go and not foretell too much into the future about how this will play out. It's often hard to predict. If the changes don't have the intended effect we can try something else or make additional changes :)
The changes equate to an average drop of 50% in profits for cyberdocs. It is possible to charge more, the pricing might need to be mobile, competitive and able to offer something more to prospective clients. Potentially offering freedom to the players to set the prices on the boards might help with this. Historically the price board prices have been honoured as far back as I have experienced.
I am not really sure what people would do if cyberdocs started charging commissions ontop of the price board prices, I've never seen it happen. Perhaps the prompts given to cyberdocs in training might need to be considered, as they have been very assuring that the priceboard is to be honored.
This, as you say, is a small thing really it only directly affects maybe 2-4 players at most and I feel with a little care and attention that can be sorted to greater benefit to the wider community.
With chrome being so cheap new, and the installation costs being close to the cost of the chrome + installation brand new. This has the potential to hits fixers as well. In some cases chrome, which includes some of the most popular chrome in the game, will have zero value second-hand. This affects the rewards when ripping a body, which means ripper docs will get paid less, which could make ripping less profitable.
To address a part of that installation fees for second-hand chrome will need to drop that same 50% (if it has then that's fine, but I've not heard about that yet) at least then there is a lower cost at legal locations, ripperdocs outside of that with more freedom and more to offer can adjust accordingly. As you say, sort it IC, the legal costs I think do need to drop in unison with the cost of new chrome though.
I feel it can be a positive path, at present it is rough around the edges with perhaps some gaps that might not have been thought about fully.
I am just going to mention though at this point that some of the most popular chrome installations actually pay the surgeon less than a rookie emt for a single patch-up job. Which just feels weird to me.
I will watch this space, and see how things roll. If you have any tips on how I can be better at putting forward constructive criticism let me know, that is what I'm attempting to achieve here.
I hope the idea of difficulty-tiered surgery tied to profit and surgeon position is perhaps consider, I can expand in an idea if it is remotely viable.
Per the discussion, couldn't cyberneticists just charge whatever they wanted for installs? Whether a flat appointment rate, or percentage markup, or fee per item.
Shady unlicensed chrome work is cool and themely, but it's not very viable even before this change happened. Personally love the price reduction overall though.
I think I already addressed the potential issues with cyberdocs dictating their prices with the current tools and history of cybernetics. Maybe have a quick skim and see if you have a constructive suggestion about how that work. Perhaps think about what your character might do if faced by a Doc who wanted to charge to 2k over the board price or other cyber Docs.
We didn't touch nanos because they are already priced where we want them to be. They are extremely powerful, pure stat boosts.
Could you clarify if the NAV DESCEND command is an auto-pilot function back to NeoTrans or if you still need to manually intervene to prevent bad things? It is hard to tell from the bug fix update.
On the other hand, there's always price fixing. Get with your rivals and work something out across the city. Beat down the ones that don't want to get in on the action.
