KMB Revamp

Right now, KMB is the only option for a nightclub like setting topside. Not getting into other previous discussions about selection of corporate venues, I think it's safe to say that the older concept of KMB that everyone's aware of hasn't been able to stand the test of time with changes to policy (not allowing Mixers) and the 24/7 broadcasting.

Currently, the page for KMB still says it caters to Mixers as well.

https://www.sindome.org/wiki/index.php/Korova_Milk_Bar

It seems, to me at least, that the reason for this is a number of factors. Disallowing Mixers was a double-edged sword, reinforcing the Divide at the cost of less interactions between classes. Current topside culture is far more subterfuge based and corps rivaling NLM are reticent to visit (It's been reinforced ICly that cross-corporate patrons are okay, but it still continues to be an issue regardless). With it being 24/7 broadcasting and most TVs turned to 420 by default it seems, people rarely go for fear of heckling or exposing themselves in a culture of cloak and shadow. The service Mixer status for employees while being televised also disinclines people to work there as well. By experience, it's a last resort as people don't want that kind of attention.

This post is purely about perceived wasted opportunity. I would love to see more attention being brought to one of SD's iconic locations, especially topside's only real 'club' environment and I think all it needs is a little love to make it happen. I've thought about this for a bit and come up with a couple ideas that might help. None of these are perfect but I think they could assist in addressing the supposed problems.

1) Moving/removing the camera

The obvious solution is changing the camera's location. With it being on the main floor, most patrons are seen coming in and hanging out in the main area, which makes people averse to it. Putting it in the VIP room might work better, since there is a trend of suicidal Mixers rushing in to be on TV to perm, and would prevent it. Paying for the privilege of being televised. Another possibility would be a televised 'stage' room off the main floor, still allowing general patrons to go on along with performances. Giving general pop a choice in either without being initially outed.

2) Complete rework to turn KMB into Dave & Buster's

Wait, no, don't leave! Seriously! Hear me out!

In order to draw in patrons, creating a corporate only commodity like a barcade would create amazing crowds. Fitting in line with the KOTM scores already present, playing games could net you KMB only currency for KMB only prizes. Similar to Deji's slot machines or the Drome's betting, corpies would be incentivized not only to spend money but hang out more.

This option of course would be a massive undertaking, but I wouldn't be suggesting it if I didn't think it was worthwhile.

In the end, my main points are that KMB could be a lot more, and it remains somewhat mothballed and underutilized in its current state. I'd love to see it and other bars frequented more, but this thread is to suggest changes to KMB specifically and address possible perceived issues with its current model.

By HolyChrome at Jan 21, 2020 12:34 PM

In my opinion the ONLY things wrong with Korova are the nouveau ban against reasonably presentable Mixers and the absence of a decent manager. (Coincidence? You decide.)

The camera was never a deterrent to volumes of quality RP.

By beandip at Jan 21, 2020 12:38 PM

I mention the cameras as a main point as they've been brought up ICly enough for me to notice it as a factor. The culture's certainly changed in the past few years especially, mentioning subterfuge, cloak and shadow.

By HolyChrome at Jan 21, 2020 12:40 PM

The BIGGEST factor in KMB's relevancy is the lack of a prominent PC at the helm.

By Azriel at Jan 21, 2020 12:41 PM

I'll agree that it takes a certain sort to properly run KMB, but I also think a venue's relevancy shouldn't depend on one PC's active involvement.

By HolyChrome at Jan 21, 2020 12:42 PM

Don't know if it's just me but even if it would be totally appropriate for my character to hang out or work at KMB, the single fact that it get broadcasted on a 24/7 live channel everyone can tune to crosses these option for me. Moving cameras either on stage only or VIP rooms would be ideal, but I am biased due to my explainable fear of live broadcasting the casual barsit in a text game.

By ZaCyril at Jan 21, 2020 12:42 PM

Isn't every venue in the game's relevance determined solely by the people attending them and managing them?

By TalonCzar at Jan 21, 2020 12:43 PM

I'm not saying the camera doesn't give some people some of the time a reason not to go, just that it didn't prevent Korova from being a very lively venue with enormous potential and actual RP.

There are plenty of places without televised cameras.

One other thing I'll add is that Korova was created by IC effort. Many other places also have been and continue to be. A game bar is a nice idea, but it's orthogonal to Korova in my opinion.

By beandip at Jan 21, 2020 12:44 PM

Managing? No. A strong contributing factor? Yes.

When's the last time Deji had a manager?

And this post is attempting to address why there's so little attendance.

By HolyChrome at Jan 21, 2020 12:45 PM

That isn't the only issue. All Korova positions used to be considered corporate. A couple years ago that changed and their pay was cut (this was when staff went through and adjusted a lot of pay across sectors), which leads back to Holychrome's point about it being a last resort for many service mixers when combined with the constant televised state.

This was compounded by the aforementioned increase interpolitical play that discourages certain factions from showing up, depending on the active landscape.

Yes KMB did use to be lively. And no, those didn't use to prevent a lively scene. But that was many years ago (most of which were under different employment status and guides) and as HolyChrome pointed out, the atmosphere and factors around attendance have changed.

By crashdown at Jan 21, 2020 12:46 PM

I have to agree with the proper management. I remember when it was staffed most of the day it was a lot more interesting as someone was always going on. My thought is it could be used a lot more heavily as a center of social conflict. How to do that is up for debate but one idea is to segregate it. Make the main floor open for mixers and servies then make the VIP area corporate only.

By Varolokkur at Jan 21, 2020 12:46 PM

Withholding salt..

KMB is not a great place to work both IC and OOC. Without giving much away, it is possibly the most stressful environments for a day job out there, and often not really in the fun way. There is a lot of pressure, especially if you're a content creator (ie performer)

That's all I'll say on the matter.

By Something_Wicked at Jan 21, 2020 12:47 PM

It probably has a lot to do with where KMB is located, among the other reasons already stated. Due to recent events it doesn't really seem to be neutral ground and with the already low (visible?) topside population you like won't get a full house often from one corp.

By Necronex666 at Jan 21, 2020 12:47 PM

I mean, to my eye the Deji reaped its lack of relevancy in a very IC way recently but I could be out of the loop. I agree there's do draw to KMB currently, though, I'm just not sure if there's an organic fix to that outside of a PC taking over.

By Azriel at Jan 21, 2020 12:48 PM

It's half because of the no-mixers policy and half because nobody's giving corpies a reason to go.

One of those didn't exist historically. The other always has and was not a problem for the venue, regardless of how individuals felt about attending.

I intend to bring this up at Town Hall as a case of the pendulum having swung too far and see what staff and other players think about that. Korova was run by Mixers who were essentially servies and picked by "homeboy" Juicy Vee, who's totally from the Mix he always says so.

By beandip at Jan 21, 2020 12:48 PM

*no draw

By Azriel at Jan 21, 2020 12:48 PM

@beandip

As I mentioned in the initial post, it's the only nightclub-esque venue topside.

We have a cafe that sells sushi, a karaoke bar that sells sushi, a diner, a tavern, and well... That's about it.

I think I'm not alone in saying that a majority of corpies would appreciate a moody dark nightclub setting for their brooding and scheming.

The most recent managers weren't themely enough and that's why they didn't last, along with the changing times.

By HolyChrome at Jan 21, 2020 12:49 PM

In response to Necro, what would happen if there was an express elevator to bypass NLM all together? That way characters in bad standing with NLM would no be shunned by making it completely out of jurisdiction.

By Varolokkur at Jan 21, 2020 12:50 PM

I would point this towards being a larger issue of the class divide and the way it's being enforced right now. If you check my post history, even years back when the entire divide 2.0 thing happened, I've been opposed to the entire idea of 'service' mixers. You're either a mixer, or you're not in my mind.

KMB is supposed to be the place where mixers and corporate can bump elbows and do business. It's a skeevy-ass stripclub that barely meets the criteria of being a corporate place in the first place.

I don't think the solution is to re-imagine it as more corporate, instead, I think more incentives should be taken for allowing mixers up there to do biz and rub elbows with suits. Promote face to face conflict and provide opportunities for it. Shit talking on SIC is a dead horse, and we have chrome specifically designed to be used in places like KMB that basically never gets used.

By TalonCzar at Jan 21, 2020 12:53 PM

The factor of corporate sovereignty was taken into account in my original post.

Corpies have been reassured ICly it's fine to patronize other corps, but there's still a lingering air. People inevitably play it safe and the only thing that suffers is RP.

By HolyChrome at Jan 21, 2020 12:54 PM

The factor of corporate sovereignty was taken into account in my original post.

Corpies have been reassured ICly it's fine to patronize other corps, but there's still a lingering air. People inevitably play it safe and the only thing that suffers is RP.

By HolyChrome at Jan 21, 2020 12:54 PM

I think most of what you want can (and has been done in the past) be done ICly and if you feel strongly about it then your PC or someone else you sponsor could work there and gradually change how things work.

By ErgoProxy at Jan 21, 2020 1:21 PM

I don't agree that KMB's biggest problem is how Mix-friendly or unfriendly it is. Topside already has a cross-class bar and it isn't wildly popular. And Grunen's has more consistent traffic despite not having a manager.

Topside night life needs a boost in general and I'd like to see some fresh takes to get people out and engaging with it more.

By Kiwi at Jan 21, 2020 1:33 PM

Since a KMB job sounds like it's a lot of work, why not bump its employees back up to corporate status?

NLM has TV and producer paths, but the sexy entertainer archetype is gated behind service mixer status.

The topside pendulum has swung towards high productivity rather than high leisure, with a lack of many high-level positions filled by PCs. As the need for cat-herding decreases, I suspect it'll swing back the other way.

It feels like none of the current joys or entertainers have shown an interest in rising to KMB status. I'd be curious to know the reason why KMB can't be corporate status.

By ynk at Jan 21, 2020 2:11 PM

Personally, I find the fear of repercussions for rival Corp employees socializing to be the most limiting factor in topsider roleplaying, and I agree that it is one of the factors at play here. Without derailing the conversation with a topic on the current political climate topside, I think the idea of moving the camera is only a band aid to fix the ultimate problem. It will be somewhere, and wherever that is people will be afraid of being fired for consorting with the enemy, and won't attend. But, my perception could be way off base.

By jsmith225 at Jan 21, 2020 2:16 PM

@jsmith225

The reason I suggest moving it is because I think the concept of KMB being always televised is nearly impossible to remove altogether. Compromise more than anything.

By HolyChrome at Jan 21, 2020 2:19 PM

@jsmith225

The reason I suggest moving it is because I think the concept of KMB being always televised is nearly impossible to remove altogether. Compromise more than anything.

By HolyChrome at Jan 21, 2020 2:19 PM

Fair enough. If compromising on the camera placement is found to be the way to go, I'd say your idea of putting it in a performance area would be my most preferred option. Putting it in the VIP area would potentially stifle the cross-corporate RP I mentioned, as well as the sort of debauchery that may or may not happen behind those velvet ropes... or fee-gated door.

By jsmith225 at Jan 21, 2020 2:22 PM

The express elevator is flying to the landing pad you walk past. This is first and foremost a place for corpies. :)

By Johnny at Jan 21, 2020 2:25 PM

As someone who has played a KMB employee before, during and after the swap from corporate to service mixer, I can honestly say that it's that change which influenced my decision to gtfo most strongly. Playing a service mixer is already near suicidal depending on what your reputation is because there are PCs on both sides of the fence who just have no interest in nuance whatsoever.

Now, you take that and put it on display for everybody to see 24/7 then you have a real problem for anybody trying to stay in one of those positions. In addition to this, most PCs that go for stripper work only do so temporarily. Why go with the high risk option when you could just stay in the mix, do your think, then find your actual interest?

Not to say there aren't characters that are strippers forever, but those are one in a million.

By Necronex666 at Jan 21, 2020 2:26 PM

If KMB had a manager, I really think it'd help -- they could use the resources of the corporate world to tempt Mix entertainers into selling out. Based on what I'm seeing, the key is probably to make the manager role tempting and influential enough for someone to take it.

With that in mind, it's surprising the role would be considered a service mixer.

By Rhicora at Jan 27, 2020 7:29 PM

Controversial Opinion: Bring back Mixers to KMB

By BadPojo at Jan 27, 2020 7:49 PM

Mixers should absolutely not be at KMB unless they're mopping floors or locked in gogo dancer cages. The problem with it when I played a topsider was that cross-corp fraternization was not allowed in public, so there was no reason to ever go to a public place. You could stay home or go to work and it'd be way safer/more secure and you'd be RPing with the same 6 people anyway.

By Vera at Jan 27, 2020 9:09 PM

" it's surprising the role would be considered a service mixer."

This.

I can't remember a "servie" running KMB, ever. They always lived topside in my own memory. If someone hired a Korova manager who lived in the Mix and refused to move up, that was a mistake and was not in accord with precedent.

"cross-corp fraternization was not allowed in public"

My opinion is that we should let go of the ideas that being in the same public place constitutes "fraternization", that Korova is NLM, and that Mixers with money wouldn't dare crash the party. Part of Korova's charm was always the conflict generated by people crossing the divides - and so much the better that it was on TV.

By beandip at Jan 28, 2020 8:55 AM

The role of manager itself is full corporate, but few people want to actively chase that position, especially with such a long term investment as service and being a pariah to both worlds.

Most other service positions are considered temporary, until they move into corporate after X amount of time (FOIC)

While we all know that KMB isn't NLM, recognizing that is only -part- of a multifaceted issue. Uphoria is open to all corps as well, but rarely visited. NLM could and should visit Bizou, but due to certain factors, they likely don't and won't.

On paper it all looks fine, but there's issues when it comes to execution. In the end, it's a risk with no incentive to take it.

By HolyChrome at Jan 28, 2020 9:02 AM

My opinion is that we should let go of the ideas that being in the same public place constitutes "fraternization", that Korova is NLM, and that Mixers with money wouldn't dare crash the party. Part of Korova's charm was always the conflict generated by people crossing the divides - and so much the better that it was on TV.

Being in the same room as someone and pointedly ignoring them is not fun and mixers with money are usually still ushered out of these places by Judges with guns.

I've said before that open inter-corporate conflict hurts all RP. It feels like even rival gangs get to socialize with each other more than people from different corporations. They're given a lot more leeway to draw battle lines, banter and cut deals even though the gangs are at war.

By Vera at Jan 28, 2020 1:37 PM

Maybe "spending time at rival bars" can be an incentive that raises your corporation's stock ticker. Thus, incentive to go there and be a sophisticated goon. 😁

By ynk at Jan 29, 2020 6:15 AM

By "bars" I clearly mean Uphoria / Bizou / KMB. 😅

By ynk at Jan 29, 2020 6:15 AM

I like it, but don't see how a low-level wage slave buying some sushi would correlate to stock market increased.

By HolyChrome at Jan 29, 2020 6:16 AM

Come up with one, then. 😁

Okay, twist on the idea. What if it decreased any corp not involved? So VS visiting Bizou lowers NLM. But if someone from NLM shows up, NLM doesn't go down.

Since we're smallworlding, why not estimate that one wage slave = 100 additional ambient wage slaves of your corp in the same location? You are what you represent. The ambpop be no different.

By ynk at Jan 29, 2020 6:24 AM

I could see large events influencing this which would also give incentive not only to PR present but also to headhunt for PR.

By HolyChrome at Jan 29, 2020 6:26 AM

Some of these ideas are good and have potential. However, some of the things said here are crossing the IC/OOC divide so please take a moment before you next post to think if what you want to post is crossing this line.

By Mobius at Jan 29, 2020 6:30 AM

Suppose you set a pose quota for each location. Nothing huge, just enough to prove a scene happened there.

At the end of each day, tally it up:

0 corporations had a scene there: No change

1 corporation had a scene there: +0.1 for that corp.

2+ corporations had a scene there: -0.1 for non-participating corporations.

All corporations had a scene there: No change

Maybe not update it until the end of the week so people don't game who was where, but something like that.

By ynk at Jan 29, 2020 6:34 AM

Anything that makes KMB a place that doesn't get used for exposing and roasting people is a definite improvement. Movement of the camera is a very solid idea. Allowing mixers, while something I would find absolutely hilarious, would be almost pointless without the camera always on them and the community backlash could be negative.

By Stiza13 at Jan 29, 2020 6:36 AM

Showing that you have balls and flexing on your rivals is more then incentive enough for me to have characters visit a rival Corp's facility. Make them serve you. Smile at their faces as you sit and act like you own the place. It's all about rep!

By Mobius at Jan 29, 2020 6:37 AM

Mobius, I feel like that's a good way to get murdered & fired. You're on their territory; they can claim you did a bad thing and that's the end of your corporate career.

But maybe that's just my incorrect perception.

By ynk at Jan 29, 2020 6:46 AM

If you could game stock prices by standing in a room then everyone would just try to do that as much as possible and anyone who didn't for whatever reason would potentially be subjected to negative consequences which is dumb if you don't like barsitting or your RP is elsewhere.

The bar can be improved without turning it into a PVE farming area.

By Vera at Jan 29, 2020 7:03 AM

What I meant by more "sanctioned" events, Vera.

No corpie raid parties to grind reputation.

By HolyChrome at Jan 29, 2020 7:04 AM

Good thing that wasn't what I was suggesting, Vera. 😊

By ynk at Jan 29, 2020 9:51 AM

"You're on their territory"

I'm trying to follow. Are we describing current-state or are we describing the way we think it should be?

I'm not seeing anyone actually saying Korova should remain exclusive NLM turf, even though that's a perception which may have had some enforcement in the past.

If anyone thinks Korova should NOT be "neutral ground", they're not spelling it out.

By beandip at Jan 29, 2020 10:57 AM

As long as you can be legally captured or killed on another Corp's turf, no one is going to go to anyone else's just to chill and have a beer.

By 0x1mm at Jan 29, 2020 1:28 PM

I'm not sure how much I can say besides: That's not quite how it works.

By Arkasia at Jan 29, 2020 1:48 PM

If I'm to take 0x1mm's comment right...

Never mind, I don't know how to take it. It doesn't help me at all to get whether they want it this way or simply think it can't possibly be any way other than this.

By beandip at Jan 29, 2020 1:52 PM

The businesses that lease space in corporate towers are not always part of the mega corp that owns the building. Leasing space to other businesses is perfectly normal for building operators. The corps decide how much of their space is open to public access. For corpies who can fly around, accessing high end places of public accomodation at the top of the corporate towers is not being seen with the enemy. I really want to end the notion that the businesses a tower has are off limits to corpies who work in another tower.

By Johnny at Jan 29, 2020 2:05 PM

I am not advocating for anything, that's just the current reality.

By 0x1mm at Jan 29, 2020 3:19 PM

If anyone seriously believes that the problem with Topside is the mere concept that something dangerous or underhanded might possibly happen to you inside of a corporate building and so everyone is avoiding corporate buildings, then the reason Topside is boring is because nobody wants to play Sindome.

Clubs are neutral, it is absolutely not going to get you fired to go to another megacorp's building but it's also wrong to strip out all nuance entirely and say the problem with Topside is that everyone is scared they might possibly end up in a fight.

By Kiwi at Jan 29, 2020 3:46 PM

I didn't make any such claim. I think topside doesn't really work because there aren't enough players for how it is structured and the small number of players are split up too much. The issues with people not frequenting X, Y or Z are just symptoms of a greater problem.

...but you still have to get through corporate owned rooms to get to KMB. I've certainly waited to ambush people outside it. It's not like this is an imaginary thing. If people are into conflict they may not care, but topside players tend to be conflict adverse.

By 0x1mm at Jan 29, 2020 4:11 PM

I don't know if you're supposed to be "ambushing" people topside like it's some syndicate war?

By villa at Jan 29, 2020 7:30 PM

Of course I am not. I am a law abiding citizen.

By 0x1mm at Jan 29, 2020 8:43 PM

I think the camera is invaluable to aspiring stars. But it's terrible for most anyone else. I think it would be ideal to adjust KMB so that the performers are the ones broadcast while the patrons are not. While still letting the patrons get that 'seeing the performance live' feel. Maybe clever architecture could manage this?

By Grey0 at Feb 2, 2020 3:39 AM

Grey's idea is very good. KMB is designed to be the place where rising stars can get noticed by the corporations - something between the worlds of the Mix and corporate life - the gateway to selling out and becoming an icon. But that's not the only reason someone would go there; the performers might want attention focused entirely on them, and their audiences may prefer a little more discretion.

Focusing the camera on loud emotes might be a quick and useful improvement.

By Rhicora at Feb 3, 2020 6:58 PM

I don't know if cameras can be placed inside stage objects, but that would use an existing system if so, rather than needing a special camera type.

By 0x1mm at Feb 3, 2020 7:00 PM

-	PoliticalLemon	20s
-	PsycoticCone	1m
-	Zulfi	54s
-	BitLittle	1h
-	Ralph	4h
a	Mench	9h	Doing a bit of everything.
And 15 more hiding and/or disguised

KMB Revamp Modernize topside's only nightclub?

KMB Revamp
Modernize topside's only nightclub?