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Incentivizing Mix performers

As discussed in xooc, being a performer (musician/dancer) in the Mix can be frustrating because you put in hours of work writing songs and poses, only to get paid a pittance for performing at clubs and events. The only coded jobs where performers get paid what they deserve for their hours of OOC preparation are topside jobs. This is not kind to Mix performers.

My idea is that clubs that host guest performers should get a budget of 20K per week strictly to pay performers with. This will be a reimbursement through a terminal and club owners should be making @notes about the performances they host at their events. With this money essentially earmarked for Mix performers, it should become a lot more profitable and fun to play a musician or dancer in the Mix. If a club doesn't have any events that week, the 20K resets at the beginning of the next week.

Club owners should be encouraged to give out that money in full to encourage up-and-coming creatives. Or split it between duets that perform, or two performances in a week, etc.

Adding this on to the end because it's not really the point of this thread but I think that performance should be divorced from the 'artistry' skill - there should be one skill for performing (songs, dance, instruments) and another skill for 'creating' (art, clothes, etc).

This exists topside where the revenue doesn't flow to a single character, but a more than million a year chyen faucet, on top of revenue, on top of sales, is something far in excess of the cost of the property and would make clubs the largest revenue sources by a huge margin.
To add to this and bring some more context to the xooc discussion; I suggested adding a separate income cap for (mixer) performers, that scales with artistry( or the proposed performing) skill. And when someone performs, the game calculates bonus tips by counting the number of players that were inspired by the performance, and multiplies the regular tips one would get, up to a limit, possibly 5x or so when the club is full enough. (That way it doesn't get abused by people performing to an empty audience playerwise.
I don't understand. Are PCs not tipping performances any more?
Yeah but nearly not enough compared to the amount of creative work that goes into a performance, when compared to the moneymaker tailoring is. What I proposed would be like, the ambient audience chiming in, but based on there being real players to listen.
I mean, they still do tip.
No coded support needed in the mix. People should be tipping their performers. It is that easy. Topside has the megacorp budgets.

Managers can change the price of entry at the door unless things have changed. Utilize this to pay for Mix performers that will draw a crowd. Of course, you need mix managers for this to work.

Even if that does/doesn't work, bouncers can demand a cover-fee for a performance and throw out any baka who doesn't pay up. That's what they're there for. Of course, you need bouncers to make that happen.

Strippers - make it rain, girls and boys. If those bakas aren't throwing wads mangement and bouncers know what to do or maybe you're in the wrong line of work. Need strippers to make that happen though.

When the mix is full of solos and fixers, it loses flavor. Here's to the influx of performers though! So many! It's so awesome! I love you guys! That's something you can really start to build a culture around.

Maybe I'm watching too much Atlanta but it feels like having to sell out a little to get that paper is pretty on theme. The arithmetic to date has usually been artists can struggle in the Mix or get some of that topside money, and take the hit to their street rep.
Id love a separate skill for performing. The other issues though seem like IC problems and like problems that can be dealt with on a more individual basis. The reality is that -all- content creation is difficult and takes a lot of dedication. Whether this be the ganger with a new idea that's never been pushed before, the accountant that generates streams of data based on RP, the solo who spends 12 hours coming up with the perfect plan to run past his team, or dude guy who writes a show for TV.

Content creation can fall into a rut if you only focus on one person creating content and then expecting everyone to stop everything to appreciate it. Not saying that is what you or anyone you know is doing, but its good to just make sure youre not falling into it. If you produce rp through it, foster connections, get that engagement, thats what will carry not just for you, but for everyone. And a lot of times chyen isn't the best reward. Rep can be, and often times is, far better for characters in the grand scheme.

There's already an ambient tipping in place with the stages. If you increase the ambient tipping, if you account for more, you're entering into an area where other archetypes might ask for this for them as well.

I don't disagree at all with the amount of effort, energy and time put into creating performances and artistic pieces. But PCs should be the ones who tip during those beyond the already coded ambient support. If PCs aren't tipping enough, it sounds like something to work out ICly through a number of different avenues.

Just to piggyback off crashdown:

More 'climbable stages' might also help in the places that don't have the coding already in place for money form the ambient pops at are inevitably there. Not having it in place feels like coded small-worlding.

There's so many stages now and a lot of them don't have it.

We need a portable soapbox, man.
Performing for poor people gives you poor people money, performing for rich people give you rich people money. That's why if you don't have integrity, you sell out and go topside. I don't see what's unthemely about that. Mix performers who truly want the money should treat the Mix as stepping stones for their ascension to immortality as a Blue citizen.

Those who actually want to be a musician for the people and stay in the Mix should have to make do with the goodwill of their peers who are perpetually broke due to their oppression. It's just hard mode but you get more of a sense of satisfaction.

I doubt this would kill the Mix performance RP scene and send all artists topside, since some characters do have integrity and once all their peers fuck off to live their corpie lives then they have less competition. Or the Mixers begin to have to watch topside performance and complain about it and agitate and do crimes about it. I honestly feel like this is worth the cost of Mix PCs theoretically having less parties to go to just to drive the point home how Topside leeches off their life to feed itself.

A few people have alluded to reputation and the roleplay around performance based characters as being one of the primary rewards.

I would really like to see performers be given an ability like the original "Charismatic Leadership" ability from CP2020 (detailed at the end of this post in italics).

The idea of being able to incite crowds is pretty cool. The way the rule is written in CP2020 is too over the top powerful for a game like Sindome.

The mechanic itself is an intriguing idea.

There are already some systems in place that are trending in this direction.

Attending a live performance can be an exhilarating experience. For players and characters who have not been to an invent in the last 6 - 12 months, you are missing out.

There are coded systems in place that can be leveraged to create more impact from a performance. For example, the "Troublemakers" code is perfect. Imagine if a performance spawned a troublemaker, or three, or a dozen.

Consider taking that to the next level. The troublemaker is spawned with an objective. As a single NPC token they probably can't achieve it and will likely be thwarted. What if characters run interference and keep the troublemaker alive long enough to complete the task?

The obvious use for this idea is for Mixers to incite the oppressed masses to riot and wreck havoc. What if it also works the other way? What if some corpos fund a benefit concert for the "Withmore Depopulation Society" and that results in troublemakers spawning in the Mix and randomly attacking people? What if their mission is to firebomb a popular bar?

I really encourage players who feel like the "performer" role does not have enough oomph to it, to go and read some of the original source material for inspiration. At the risk of spelling it out, come up with a purpose behind the performances. A message behind the music.

Charismatic Leadership Ability - CP2020 Rules[/b]

Charismatic Leadership (Rockers):

This skill allows the Rocker to sway crowds equal to their level squared times 200. This ability (added to your Cool stat) allows the Rockerboy to control, incite and charm large

number of people through their performance skills.

When under the Rocker's control, this group can easily be persuaded to act on their suggestions; for example, a Rocker could convince a concert crowd to riot in the streets or attack a heavily fortified police line.

Charismatic Leadership will only work with groups of ten or more people as it is primarily a mob leadership ability. The higher your Charismatic Leadership, the

larger a crowd you can control and the more direct and complex the instructions

you can get them to follow.

For example, a Level +3 Leadership could incite a nightclub crowd to get rowdy. A Level+5or+6could provoke a concert crowd of thousands to trash a neighborhood, if the area wasn't too far from the hall. At Level +9, and higher, you have the same sort of mesmeric ability as an Adolph Hitler-you can raise armies, start movements, and destroy nations.

Character Description / Synopsis

Rockerboys are rebellious musicians who use music and revolt to fight authority. They are a lot like '80s punk rockers who look down on corporate "sellouts" as the traitors to the craft. Because they are so charismatic, they can sway, incite and charm a large number of people through musical performances.

This synopsis seems to encapsulate one of the key elements of this discussion. Specifically all (the majority?) of the perceived "benefits" of being a performer are reserved for corporate sellouts who go topside and end up with loads of chyen.

What is missing are the "benefits" (the street cred / reputation) of performers who decide to remain in the Mix and "among the masses".

I don't know if this would be offtopic, but an "attended a performance" version of "laid" would be nice even if the benefits would be minor. Maybe a slight boost to perception and endurance to let you hustle in the afterparty or get into a bar brawl afterwards.
I'm in agreement with the ambpop tipping idea. I like it. Sure, musicians play for poor people and get poor people money, but when you're playing to a crowd of hundreds in a club, that's a lot of poor people money when you add it up.

Five or ten PCs in a club? I've seen people walk out with less than five hundred flash in tips. Even well liked performers. Days or weeks of effort to make less flash than sitting at the PRI line? I've been told before to consider ambpops in a public indoor space for every one PC.

Ox1mm confirmed the existence of funds topside to pay for things like this (unless I misunderstand). This idea is the same thing except coming from a thematically legitimate source for the mix. I don't really see where the issue is.

Imagine I said we should remove crate running from the game because, "We should ICly make players pay more to runners." That's what the argument "Players should tip more" sounds like to me.

But yeah, we constantly talk about ambpop consideration. So where's the ambpop here?

Up to a hundred ambpop per PC depending on the room/crowded marker. Fubar on that sentence above.
@RatchetEffect's comments about ambpop align with some thoughts I have been.

We (our characters) ARE the crowd. We can choose to respond to performances.

Performer does a song about burning down the corporations? We can go out and act on that. Even if it's just hopping on a burner SIC alias and spewing some random anti-corporate propaganda.

Performer does a song about unity and peace in the Mix? We can amplify that sentiment.

The new performing code / stage code does a good job of emoting ambpop that we can react to.

In my own personal experience, my character was at a show being done by a character that my character didn't really like because of various IC reasons. None the less, I decided to play along with the emotes being generated by the performance. I allowed my character to be swayed by the performance. I decided to have my character go forward with a more positive / less negative view of the performer.

Your comparison is a false equivalency, ratchet. Ambient pop pay for performers already exists mechanically in-game. No one's saying pull that already featured function out, which if we did would make the 'pull crate running out' comparison relatable.

The argument is against INCREASING or adding additional ambpop pay. I don't think that's fair or balanced for the game. If you're increasing pay from the ambpop because the PC population isn't tipping adequately, where does that stop? Should a solo be able to get tips or intimidate ambpop on the street during a kill filled with flair? Should a decker who creates awesome nodes get randomized tips from the ambpop sent to their bank account?

I 100% think more stages should get added to the game, that's a great idea mentioned above for clubs and places which either don't have stages or don't have the ones with the same functions as other venues. But if your character isn't earning enough because PCs aren't paying or tipping enough, that's a completely IC issue to solve, imo.

I'm 110% in agreement with the sentiment that @crashdown made against increasing automated payouts.

One of the things I have come to love about this game is the fact that one character can only get ahead by taking from another character.

Creating automated payouts based on skills is way too PVEish for my liking.

I even dislike my own proposal about manipulating crowds and spawning troublemakers because of how it is essentially a PVP mechanic.

If performers can spawn a troublemaker with a good performance, should a solo be able to intimidate an ambpop token into causing trouble? A chef able to bribe someone with food? A decker able to blackmail some random ambpop by threatening their make believe Bank account if they don't go throw a molotov at the maglev gates?

Where does it end?

I think it's important to always consider other archetypes when suggesting things like this. It's easy to champion an idea that benefits us personally, or that is intended to bring about more of what we want to see in the game. And that's fine.

Using performance as an example, consider the other side of the coin.

If I'm asking for an automated way for performers to make money because I want more performers, how are we (the community) going to provide a similar automated money making system for every other "under represented" skill / archetype that we want to see more of?

At the end of the day, it all seems to come down to do more crime to survive.

I'm not making enough playing my guitar, so I had to mug someone for rent.

Nobody had a car for me to work on this week, so I had to steal a crate from some immigrant.

Nobody needed a television installed, so I had to sneak into someones apartment. I think. I dunno. I woke up in the vats and that's what pubsic said I did.


Can you give an example of ambpop paying without revealing IC info? As someone who has experience rping artists, Ive never seen it.
Once upon a time the most popular spot in the Mix was down to pretty much one player manager keeping it all together. I'm not sure how many of these manager positions still exist, but they can make a huge difference to the social scene when the work goes in. Some of the performance OGs came up in a context like that.
Though I should add: I tried to do it myself later partly in emulation and it was tough even with very deep pockets, so perhaps not something for anyone to undertake casually.
Can you give an example of ambpop paying without revealing IC info? As someone who has experience rping artists, Ive never seen it.

Being as vague as I can it exists for performers who are employed on the business terminal of the relevant business. I don't believe just any performer gains access to it.

all well and good to say people should just tip more but i think people just understimate the sheer amount of time and effort that goes into good quality performance rp, and its multiplied when trying to do cooperative performance and the logistics of that (wonder why bands are so rare) - definitely the hardest artistry skill in terms of time and finding the inspiration

i think it is *themely* for mixers to sell out if they wanna be rich, but it isnt fun necessarily, and its why there arent many mainstay mix performers - increased automated payouts would help with this and avoiding the burnout that comes when a performance doesnt feel appropriately compensated compared to the time thats been spent (seen this happen A LOT)

i also think its silly to compare this to other archetypes, as solos and even deckers have other potential options for income compared to a strictly performance character (i know there arent many people who strictly stick to certain parts of artistry but is it really surprising)

I'm the OP for this topic in XOOC. Real talk: performing in the form of live music can be some real bullshit at times. You spend 8-10 hours writing out music, poses and, god forbid, spend the time to program it all into your instrument (Sorry, the coded system is very clunky and hard to use in my experience.) Go out and play your song you worked on for the better part of an entire day, and you might make a few kay (woohoo!) or you might not make enough to cover the drink tab.

Full disclosure: I'm pretty sour grapes about the performer experience, overall.

I'll share the anecdote I put in OOC here for everyone. I once played a gig that was booked weeks in advance, and had some 20+ players in attendance, so a really solid crowd. Lots of hype, lots of encouragement to save up and tip well. I spent about 20 hours OOCly writing the set list of original content for the show. I walked away after performing half a dozen songs with barely over a K as total take home.

Literally. Soul crushing.

Somewhat frustratingly, players also start to grumble if a song is played more than 3-5 times across a number of shows shows as well. 'Where's the new shit!? We already heard this twice! Boo, hiss!' Troublesome, given the time it takes to conceive and write a song to completion. Stylistically, as a performer you're also presented with the decision to either play your song at a somewhat reasonable pace and have it played out at what amounts to half tempo, which keeps the lyrics and poses coming at a good pace, or you really milk out the pauses and try and work the crowd with poses between dropping bars. In both cases, it's actual work to perform behind the keyboard.

Here's a few thoughts I thought I'd post after reading the thread.

The people who tip well are almost always artists themselves or former artist players, because they recognize what a labor of love it is. Think of it this way: a person pay five, ten, fifteen kay on an article of clothing that takes half the OOC effort of buying equipment, producing a song, promoting your show, playing the event, and working the crowd.

Some of the payouts at larger events are good.

Some of them are like getting slapped in the face.

As a performer you want to rip your hair out when people ask you to perform with zero booking fees. 'Yes, I would love to break my ass making content for you on the vague hope that maybe I make a couple K in tips.'

Unfortunately for both crowd and performer, there's no good way to tell how things are looking. (assuming people aren't inspecting everything here) People see one pile of flash and it's 4K and think that the performer isn't making anything. Inversely, there might be 25 piles of 50c and people think .o0(I'll just tip a bit because there's a lot of flash in the guitar case already.)

Perhaps this would be easier to visualize if there was a tip jar object in clubs where you could look at the jar and get a rough idea of what others had contributed without having to look through 15 piles of flash.

Have lots of patience when it comes to demanding fresh content. If someone's a one-song chump and that's all they've done for weeks or months, sure, chuck some stale popcorn if you want.

Paying performers shouldn't fall entirely on the club owner, IMHO. Operational costs of clubs are already high if you have a few employees who are getting a halfway decent paycheck weekly. There is a clear advantage to working for a NPC owned club, which I don't think should be the case.

TL;DR Literally give

Personally, I just honestly can't think of any way to explains how small-time Mix performers are going to be able to make their daily bread by performing full-time. That just doesn't happen in real life, I mean, capitalism severely underfunds artistry because they're more interested in producing more mass media rather than to allow something with soul to flourish. We already see people ICly deriding most Topside performers and praising Mixer performers, so there's already some soft power dynamic going on between the Media deities and the underdogs. I mean, I'm not saying that it's realism for realism's sake, but at some point if everything is completely gamified, why even bother roleplaying, why don't we just go play a videogame that gives you a pat on the head every time you click on an NPC?
Yeah asking for something reasonable back from putting hours of work into artistic materials to benefit the game is exactly the same thing as clicking on an NPC
I just feel like if you try to calibrate everything to encourage things from the OOC side that can sometimes end in disaster rather than actually helping. I mean, Back when I played quite some time ago, artists were basically money-printing machines and their buying power was so large that people who are not willing to bust ass gets crowded out by people whose main form of interacting with the game is spending time creating content rather than going out and roleplaying in crimes and cyberpunk-related matters. And don't get me wrong, content is great, but if the entirety of the playerbase is geared towards producing content, I feel like things may get a little wonky.

And just to be clear, not to reveal any IC info but I am playing a content creator, I really personally don't understand this attitude of "I spent OOC efforts so I should be given IC benefits" when literally nobody was twisting your arm to become a volunteer writer. I write for the game not because I expect to be paid more, but because it's how I want to interact with it. I am already rewarded in that I can produce progression for my character while sitting outside of the game, and therefore safe from IC hostilities. You can see how unfair things would be if I also had a lot of money and so can pop in, hire a bunch of solos to kill my enemies, then pop back out to write my next chart-topper?

...Actually, on second thought, I suppose that would trickle down to more RP for everyone. I retract my position.
You can see how unfair things would be if I also had a lot of money and so can pop in, hire a bunch of solos to kill my enemies, then pop back out to write my next chart-topper?[/b]

Chemistry has entered the chat.

Not to get off-topic, but I feel like chemistry is already balanced by how chemistry characters are non-entities in the public eye and the gameplay is soul-crushingly dull.

But anyways, I mean, I suppose I personally have a dog in the race that content-creating characters like performers getting paid more would benefit me, but I just honestly feel like the right balance can be difficult to strike. I can't see how you would thread the needle between making performing feel less like throwing away energy, while also not making it so that basically volunteer writers are entitled to gain IC benefits in Sindome because they did volunteer work outside of the time for Withmore Hope Inc.

I feel like every time this game tried to inject more money into the economy via automated methods rather than human intervention by staff, it leads to a disaster of some kind.

"Back when I played quite some time ago, artists were basically money-printing machines and their buying power was so large that people who are not willing to bust ass gets crowded out by people whose main form of interacting with the game is spending time creating content rather than going out and roleplaying in crimes and cyberpunk-related matters."

I play a (semi-retired) tailor. As I mentioned in xOOC, I could make 20K right now if I just buckled down and wrote six articles of clothing. But I don't – you know why? Burnout. Even the prospect of earning chy does not inspire me to OOCly spend 6+ hours describing another pair of pants. The return on investment in terms of how much TIME I spend crafting this content does not make it an enticing opportunity for me. I'd much rather actually go out and RP than sit in my apartment racking my brains over how to write the @tease of a pair of boots to make it unique. I'd much rather deal with IC hostilities than stress about getting yet another commission done on time.

I know this thread is not about tailoring, but rather performance. I'm not arguing that tailors need to be paid more. I'm just emphasizing the fact that writing clothing/music for the game is difficult and time-consuming and the rate of burnout is extremely high. Performance is even more ephemeral than clothing because in most cases Mix performers cannot record their performances, and yes, people always start demanding new songs after two or three shows of the same song.

Do we want to encourage more musicians and dancers in the Mix? Then we need to make it worth their time. Just like how tailoring can pay rather well, performances need to pay better too. That's why I suggest the idea of a 20K performance budget that automatically resets in a club-owner's terminal each week, earmarked for performers. This way, it shouldn't put any strain on PC club owners to compensate their guest performers appropriately.

I'd also argue that people sitting in clubs, playing live sets for people to enjoy is way uh.. let's say 'healthier' for the game overall, compared to, as mentioned by Melonly, sitting in a closet and writing out the 11th pair of socks for the week.
On second thought, 20k additional per venue probably won't cause Withmore to descend into performer-ruled chaos.
Think performers are making too much money? Loiter outside the club until their performance is over and mug them when they come out. Hope their fans love them enough to defend them.
^ yes to everything you put down svetlana

also on another note, maybe even just give performers other options for revenue? i know that nlm owns everything, bla bla bla but for the love of christ can performers be allowed to burn their performances to cds or something?? as well as just being another source of income next to selling band shirts or whatever, it would fix the huge archival issue with mix performing - where unless you do recorded topside performances ur work is basically lost to the sands of time outside of lyric nodes and such

I think that's a coded issue rather than a philosophy issue, I don't know, like decking, there's really not much we can do except wring our hands about the realities of game development being hard.
I would say that radios are tragically underutilized for mix music, however I think there's logistical issues since broadcasts have time limits.

Perhaps if there was a transmitter that could lock open channels for enough time for a full performance.


I think you are onto something with radios. I think there is something there with being able to lock them open. Based on my limited knowledge of radios, I believe that there are IC opportunities there.

Things like more powerful transmitters being able to transmit for longer. Or the ability to tweak / overclock existing transmitters. Maybe even true radio wars based on signal strength, or some other mechanism that allows pirates to broadcast over official NLM channels. And with that, the corresponding need for NLM to stay on top of their game to keep control of their own airwaves.

Random thought about "successful" topside / corporate performers.

Once a performer sells out, they should anticipate being worked to the bone. They aren't just performing live shows anymore. Or putting out albums. They are doing grunt work.

Jingles for commercials. Background music for video games. Intros for product demos.

All of that should be as monotonous as the PRI factory where characters literally need to 'scan in' and their players have to 'produce content' every so often in exchange for their paychecks.

The only difference should be that every increment of work produces more chy than factory work. Other than that, welcome to the next rung of the treadmill slave. Congratulations on your success.

I feel like being a Topside performer is already its own punishment enough, OOCly. Like, not to get into IC, but I notice that Topside performers seem to often be treated as mere playthings for their boss to mess around with and flick back down to the Mix if they get uppity. One can only imagine how much they have to deal with outside of public too, with all the intrigues and none of the Corpsec's ability to make loose ends mysteriously dead.
Reporters should have similar content creation expectations.

The Grid is practically dead. It feels like there should be at least one news story per week. Reporting the news does not have the same creative requirements as creating a song out of whole cloth, or even developing stellar clothing description.

It is just report on what other characters are doing. Tracking down the PubSIC topic of the day / week and reporting on it for example. Or sending an eyePod out for a "Bot on the Street" perspective of how Trash Golems live.

A little tough love and likely not popular.

If you are hoping to make bank doing performances in Red, without selling out I think not only is it an unrealistic expectation, it is also, I personally think unthemely. I think of Mixer performers, performing in the mix as akin to buskers who got lucky on an open mic night. A tiny tiny tiny per cent of fantastically talented musicians actually make any money at all out of their craft, in a place like the Mix that should be doubly so.

I understand from an OOC perspective a lot of work goes into these things, I have spent hundreds maybe even thousands of ours since starting sindome writing creative content that earned nothing, and most likely will never be seen. IT SUCKS, but I still do it because I love doing it. If you do not enjoy writing these things out, you do not have to do, your characters skills can be applied elsewhere or even to these other creative skills and earn, while music is a passion.

I really do not want to be 'suck it up' but being a chy rich performer in Sindome, you have to sell out and sell your soul. BUT that does not mean you cannot be a rich performer, adoration, RP, that feeling of characters appreciating your work. That can mean as much as seeing a chy number increase.

It can be about the journey and RP, that can be payment :)

It doesn't have to be about 'making bank.' Just easing the sting of insulting, disrespectful, unappreciative spectators who are happy to show up for the performer's RP and then just fucking stiff them isn't too much to ask for.
I've played this kind of character before. I've been on the shitty end. I used to complain to admin all the time and it fell on deaf ears. I understand the frustration, but now I also see where admin comes from, too. I'm neither for nor against ambient pay. In the end, it should be an inconsequential amount though.

Think about it . . .most of the musicians in the mix right now have been there less than three or four months. If we follow the amb-pop rule of 1 to 100. For every one musician you have another 100 axe grinders out there trying to make it big in Red. How do you expect a city of 90 million people to see you as something special in 3-4 months or even less?

1. You aren't that special, yet. 2. Your coded skills aren't that great, yet. This is a big one I think. You can't just ignore SPECIALS because you put in a lot of work behind the scenes. It takes in-game time to build appeal and skills 3. Maybe get noticed in some way other than playing that brings inspiration to the music and the audience?

These are just some observations for the sake of playing devil's advocate, but I still think there are lots of better IC ways people can secure chyen through performances than using coded support. It would be great if people just tipped, like beandip said. Stingy bakas. Grow a pair will ya?

Why is the assumption lingering that we're talking about unskilled or noob performers? Why does everyone assume we're talking about career performers? This affects people who have done this stuff for years just as much as anyone else. Most of us do this as a part-timer thing to produce content, and with zero interest in following the career path of artist to the top.

Listen, all I'm saying is this.

Someone took time and effort to hand craft content for you, the person showing up to a show.

They've invested in multiple skills and stats to advance their RP.

They have, by all means, done EVERYTHING they should do in every other career to progress their character.

People still pay, and tip like shit. You know why there is 50 singers who are 2 months old and 2 that are 3 years old? It's not perming. It's burnout and feeling like they are totally unappreciated. I can't sum this up any better than what I said earlier.

People will pay 10, 15, 20K for clothing, which is comparatively easy to make, but they'll go to a live show someone busted their ass to make happen and toss 500c out.

As beandip said, it's insulting.

I have a couple of ideas for performers specifically and creative players in general.

Reusing Performances / Extending the Lifespan of Creative Content

A significant amount of effort goes into creating a performance. I have never seen a single song performed that did not also include emotes, poses, etc. In fact, I personally, OOCly have never left a performance and thought anything less than "Wow, that took a lot of work and creativity. Hats off to that person (player). I certainly don't have the creative vision or willingness to dedicate that much time into producing that kind of content."

@TalonCzar's comment comparing the economic disparity between paying a creative player tens of thousands of chyen for clothing, versus paying a creative player a few hundred chyen for a live performance got me thinking.

At first glance, the clothing is "obviously" more valuable because it is durable. A single performance is just that. It happens in real time and it's over. Unfortunately the scarcity of the event does not drive up it's value. (It's kind of ironic that performers are short changed by a theme that places so much emphasis on possessions for status. That's a philosophical discussion for later.)

Touring and Cultivating a Fan Base

That got me to thinking that performers should plan to tour whenever they put out a new song. I was reminded of fans who follow a band on tour, even if it is just for a few stops in cities close to their own. They aren't following the band because of the song. They can listen to the song on their personal devices any time they want. They are following the band because live shows are an experience.

I think (total conjecture here) that performers might be suffering some collateral damage to the "club conflict". When I started nearly four years ago, the club conflict was pretty visceral. Firebombings. Social shaming / clique type behaviors around who went to which club. etc. That type of conflict has been significantly toned down, and I do see performers doing their routines in multiple clubs more so than in the past.

I feel like the game community would be enhanced overall if EVERY club supported a performer and booked them when they put out new material. Of course there can be competition over where the song gets performed first. And performers should charge a premium for their debut show.

By hitting all of the clubs, not only will performers have more opportunities to earn chyen, and more opportunities to get more mileage out of their content, but they will also enable the creation of a fan base. As much as possible, they can try to find different time slots to give more of the player base opportunities. Maybe a player usually only logs on after work US time during the weeks. But then they could do a morning show, or late night show to align with "day time" in other parts of the world.

The fan base is also an opportunity for roleplay. Traditionally, KMB has been the "ultimate destination" for performers to perform at. Imagine the fun to be had when a performer with a small army of shabby Mixers brings that fanbase to the KMB. How does NLM walk the tightrope between wanting to be associated with the hottest up and coming performer, while distancing the performer from the very fans that enabled their rise to the top? Let the Mixers in and hope they don't trash the place? Lock the Mixers out and hope they don't riot on New Light Avenue?

Keep in mind that performances are RP opportunities for EVERYONE. If you can't find ways to use a big group of people to Do Crime in, maybe seek out a mentor? Watch a couple videos about agitators leveraging otherwise peaceful protestors as a starting point.

Open Source Creative Content

A few months (years?) ago, there was a great effort to open source the creation of emotes for drugs. It was successful and allowed people to contribute to the game at their leisure.

A couple of people have discussed how the pressure / expectation to continue creating content month after month, year after year as a "performer" or artist burns them out.

It seems like there might be an opportunity to allow creative people to contribute creative content without needing to be performers.

This is NOT a suggestion meant to address the lack of compensation for performers.

This IS a suggestion to generate a slow flow of new content into the game.

What if there was a system like the one that was used for drugs, or other script development, that was used for creative content?

I am thinking about things like two or three emote holo-ads in the subways. Emotes from the ever present blimps and televisions.

Obviously, NLM characters are "supposed to" be the main source of that. And I'm by no means suggesting taking food off of their plates.

But why not tap into people, players, who are feeling creative?

It might even be possible to blend the two. Create a player generated pool of creative content. Have NLM Senior management pick one or two of them a few times a year. Then assign those picks to Juniors for further refinement or enhancement?

I know it's my own idea, but now that I think about it, I really like this last one. It eases the burden of full time creative characters. (I don't know about the rest of you, but the biggest challenge for me is "getting started". Once I get started and have the basic idea, the rest of the creative process flows fairly freely from there.) It also gives performers a light at the end of the tunnel. While they are starting, they have to create their own content. But they know, if they "make it", they'll have support of huge megacorp with a steady stream of ideas for them to build off of / rip off / rebrand as their own.

Hey, let's not represent 500c as insulting. It's not the best, but, it wouldn't suck as much if everyone threw it - and more to the point, if nobody present threw zero.

Remember when there was a stiff attendance fee for UMC, separate from the automated door fee which the fighters or promoter couldn't collect anyway? That didn't keep people from attending. The only difference between that fighter entertainment versus the artist entertainment we're discussing is that that fee was mandatory rather than discretionary.

Maybe that's the trouble. What ideas are there for making it non-discretionary? I'm talking about behavior ideas, not code or ambient income ideas.

UMC had a bouncer to collect the attendance fee, and it was well publicized in advance of the event. Club operators, could you do something similar?


How come you're such a cheap skate?! =P

You bring up a good point though.

Looking at this through the PVP lense, performing and live events are kind of gladitoral.

Characters have proven that they will pay for content that they want to see. (UMC)

It would be interesting to run an experiment with club owners increasing the door fee.

Then door fee + bouncer fee.

Then door fee - bouncer fee + tips.

That experiment right there is a roleplay rich idea that various club owners, performers and managers could implement right now.

Increasing the door fee discourages people gathering to RP in bars though.
UMC reminds me of another thing for performers and replay value.

NLM can help performers stretch content by recording their performances (at KMB). Or inviting them in studio to perform. Or even getting out ahead of their popularity and reporting on them "Live from the Mix." Come on. Who doesn't want to see an eyePod in Carnal's? Or a posh, star reporter in the Drome?

What could possibly go wrong?

Or veteran performers who have made it can collaborate with with up and comers. Again, this is a way to stretch content. Let the mid-tier performer sing a few lines of a Milana song alongside the starlet herself. Or flip the script and maybe Milana does a remix of the mid-tier song, adding a new verse.

Looking at RL, one of the only reasons that performance art sustains itself is because of the community of performers. Artists show up for other artists. They drag their friends, and partners, and random strangers along with them to shows and events that those non-artists would never go to on their own.

Temporary, for the duration of the event.
It doesn 't even have to be a human bouncer. Club owners have access to the till where door fees go. This is different from the UMC situation.

It does, but my understanding is that door fees are extremely fluid and can be raised or lowered by the owner / manager at whim.

(I've never owned / run a club ICly so take this with a huge grain of salt.)

I proposed the door fee increase working with the assumption that it can be put in place temporarily for the performance, then lowered (or removed) once the performance is done.

Hek is correct. Club owners can manage the door at will.
I think UMC makes it really clear that a fee doesn't discourage people from showing up to an event.
In the past, I attempted on multiple occasions to get various club owners to raise door fees for a show night. For some reason, not a single one ever did. Not sure why. Anyway, my character at the time chose to quit playing altogether because it ate up too much time with too little payout, and that time could have been better spent hustling something that would pay for food or rent or whatever. I took the same kind of bleed/burnout being discussed and created a similar IC reason to just stop doing it.

I think that's something to be considered. Conceptualizing a piece of music, writing it in a presentable, likeable manner, writing the scripts for it, repeatedly practicing it in the performance system to get every error out - meaning deleting the entire script and creating it again from scratch in the system. Marketing the show, building interest, managing your own biz with clubs...

I'll say first of all, that twenty four hours to create a whole song is god damn fast imo. Put all of that other stuff together though, and you're playing the part of artist, manager, marketer at the very least. Trying to rp those separately (as I also have) doesn't work of course, because the payout is already so small, it's not possible to split between even one more person.

We're talking days of work for some that don't have time to commit to other rp. We can't all spend ten hours a day online or whatever, so that nothing sum could be all that's earned - and it likely won't even pay for rent from what's been offered, in my experience.

Buuuut...I'm a musician irl and that's exactly what it's like. My last band's high point before covid had us booked twice at Busch Stadium, which netted us a total of two grand for the year. Even as a well known and popular St. Louis band that had show offers almost bi-weekly, we'd be lucky to afford gas money home after a month or two of hustling tickets between job shifts. No shit, sometimes I literally stood in popular weekend spots hustling tickets like a scalper on the street. Cause the venue won't do shit for you except provide the space and take seventy percent of your sales in thanks for your effort.

Still, this is a game. And while it's supposed to be bleak and crappy and the epitome of destitution in the mix, maybe the consideration should be less about "you're making what you should make in the mix", and more about "musicians are a great catalyst for large group rp, and an enjoyable social event for players. how do we keep music minded players from quitting on account of it simply not being worth their irl time?"

Consider that while I suggest some IC options.


1. Don't play a gig if there isn't an agreement to raise the door fee. You're a business entity and you're entering into a contract. You don't have to just fold to the venue's terms (doesn't work irl btw).

2. Request a percentage of bar sales (some places will do this irl, but mostly it's for cover bands. they tend to have larger draw than local new music).

3. Request a combination of these things in addition to a small flat fee from the club itself.

4. If all else fails, refuse to play there. Bring the biz to someone who values you. Or be an enterprising baka and find ways to make flash at it without the clubs.

5. There are probably ways to earn flash playing in the streets if you think about it for a bit. I have a few thoughts in mind, but I'm keeping them to myself OOC.


1. Raise the door fee

2. Raise drink prices

3. Do both even and make a single drink purchase mandatory for each patron

4. RP ticket sales and make a list of people who paid for the show in advance

4a. Now you have income whether the PC shows up or not.

4b. Charge less for tickets and more for paying at doors

All of 4 is irl drek

5. Don't be surprised when club x makes bank next Saturday because you were too cheap to payout what the music is worth

One other thing, and I might be in the huge minority here? Stop writing your artistic works off the game and rp writing them IC. Go out and sit at a club with a relevant tp while you write it up in your OOC word doc. Or do it in your apartment or whatever. Just be online when you're working on it, cause not gonna lie, it reeeeeally feels like a cop out to avoid rping that kind of thing to avoid being bothered by others or because it's convenient, or for whatever other reason people do it for.

+1 to everything in ratchet's post. I mentioned a couple of those earlier, too. The only other thing I'd re-add is that we can get a lot of people involved in shows for the musician. Club managers can do promotions, bouncers can take door fees if you don't want to raise the door prices (btw, this would involve getting GM's on board because managers can't collect door fees themselves - at least they didn't use to be able to.), you can get dancers involved - and all the while charge accordingly.

I would like to say: Let's limit the performance is so hard and every other artist/journalist/ tailor is weaksauce and has it easy talk. That isn't productive.

this would involve getting GM's on board because managers can't collect door fees themselves - at least they didn't use to be able to.

That was a long time ago. Today, managers can set the door fees and collect the take from the door too.