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Improving Artistry quality-of-life

I absolutely love both of those ideas, especially of being able to pre-roll finish on material, before doing all the OOC heavy lifting on it. And it makes sense, as describing clothes as well done, flashy etc, when they come out average is just... eh. Makes no sense.

You will will have to spend flash on materials, as it's still may need few tries for best result, but at least without the OOC annoyance.

I have always seen this as part of the design process. In the real world most people don't get a custom work out perfectly the first time. They often have to try it a few times at least. First the quality seems off. Then you sleeves are a little long. Then you manage to get all together perfectly.

Another factor that would have to be considered is how removing these failures that come with a literal cost will impact an already lucrative profession. If we make it so tailors always get it right the first time then losses in profit will drop and net earnings will raise - a raise that might not really we wanted given how well tailors earn already.

Not saying the ideas are bad or will be accepted or rejected. Just throwing other things out that I feel should be considered.

@Mobius what about the middle ground of simply moving the finalizing rolls to separate command that can be applied to a material, before tailor works on it? You still have to do as many tries as before, but know ahead of time how good the clothing will be.
I get the point of this, but I sort of feel like the roll is there to frustrate our attempts to be in control of the system. The glaring issue I see with being able to quality-check a garment before finalizing it is tailors would just buy a few materials and set their quality, then pick and choose which ones they use for any particular job.

Just feels like it takes away any element of risk from tailoring. Don't get me wrong, I would love it personally, but I still feel like I have to argue against it :)

As it stands, if something's not up to scratch, well, trash it and start again!

At higher levels of skills/stats this isn't AS much of an issue. I've revised pieces 2-3 times when I spotted a mistake without them tanking much in terms of their modifiers (or getting the dreaded 'this pieces has been altered' on inspect).

Still, I also find it annoying.

I would like to be able to use luck to try to offset bad rolls, which I currently believe there is no check for. I would also like an item to not decrease in value with a high enough roll when revising it.

Further, I think it makes sense for you to be able to patch an item seamlessly if you roll high enough and are using the same material as the original piece to patch with.

I'd like to bring up my own complaint here since it falls under the topic of this post. I feel tease messages take up a lot of time and often go unused. I'd like to offer the suggestion that they are removed from the process of tailoring and instead work like instruments or a stage allowing anyone wearing the piece to change them as long as the item name is included in the message.
Seamless patches would be fantastic.
I write and uses teases quite a bit. It might just be a perception issue where people around you aren't doing it.

I actually think they're one of the most fun parts of writing a piece, typically either reflecting the designer's sensibilities, the client's personality, or both. It's where you can be playful.

Teases are fantastic. Pay people more for putting in the work for them.
Well then, guess not. +1 to the patches though.
IMHO Any item without a tease message is a travesty. I'd love a Fix-It project that listed out every item without one and as a community we could address it.

Watch out for those bitch'n chik'n wrappers, kids.

Any item without a tease message is a travesty. I'd love a Fix-It project that listed out every item without one and as a community we could address it.

A little bit hyperbolic I would say. In a year I've seen maybe five teases in the wild. They're just baked-in emotes, not the keystone of the Arc De Triumphe.

I agree with Crooknose that extraordinarily skilled tailors ought to be able to faultlessly repair damaged articles with the appropriate materials, it would give their skills more cachet beyond just creating items no one can afford to begin with, and it would avoid duplication of items.

Agree with HolyChrome. Good teases are the hallmark of a tailor putting in the work, IMO.

I would definitely like to be able to re-finalize pieces without them taking a huge hit in quality, it's a real bummer. Even if it's for someone else's sake; the number of times I've seen someone's clothing with a wrong pronoun interpolation, and wanted to fix it but not wanted to impact the quality, ugh.

The bad roll on finalization hasn't hit me -quite- as hard, although it is a bummer.

Definitely cosigned on repairing having less of a negative impact, as well.

I don't know how many people know about teases being customized for tailored clothing. Or that you can see all of the messages on clothing prior to wearing/using/teasing by doing @messages clothingname

Which might be helpful for people to both do them and also ask for something unique to them from their tailors.

They may not be the golden benchmark of tailoring but whenever I see "You absent mindedly poke and fiddle with your (clothing)" I wonder what I paid for to be honest.
Without getting too ICly, when I've played tailors, I've definitely made an effort to put high-quality teases in whether or not the person knew about them or asked for them, with the assumption that one person is only likely to hold on to clothing for so long given the relative life expectancy in the game. Either the folks ordering the clothes will see them and dig them (which has generally tended to be the case), or the new owners down the road will, eventually. That being said, newcomers don't ever receive any indication that tease exists, as far as I can remember. I don't know if there's a way to gracefully incorporate a play-tip on it, or some other message, but that wouldn't be a bad idea at all.
Only posting to add m encouragement for people to LOVE AND BUY MORE ART.
I'm not a tailor, nor will I ever be, but it seems to me that inserting the "value" of a piece of clothing at the very end makes no sense. I've personally thought crafting in-game has always been a bit lackluster. Not to get off topic but I see no reason tailors shouldn't be able to make custom armored pieces, and weaponcrafting should be a thing too IMHO.
I agree with everything said in this thread.

Tailors and other artistry types get "big" payouts because they're putting OOC hours into their work adding content to the world. There's no reason to add additional frustration to them.

That's not to say other professions -aren't- putting OOC hours into their work and that they -aren't- experiencing coded frustrations. But they're not the topic of this thread.

Big no to armor and weaponcrafting. Those items require scrutiny and for someone to just pump out weapons and armor that may not be themely would be awful for the game. Same reason why we can't make disguise items.

Big yes to Ephemeralis' post

I'm not such a fan of letting others trash someones previously created tease. Maybe being able to refer to clothing in poses?
Also tailors have gotten the most love, feature-wise, when it comes to skills, so don't expect much development before we get the others taken care of to similar degrees.
Would be neat to be able to have a way to refer to clothing in poses, like some kind of symbol prefix and a keyword from the outfit like

'.tug my /shorts into a comfortable position.'

shorts could be like Colorful, Shorts as keywords and /colorful or /shorts would refer to the same item, Johnny.

I don't think clothing needs that kind of pose stuff. Nobody's playing as a pair of licorice black jeans, I can just type their name out.
I still kinda hope @finalize could do a @Luck check. Would be nice to see
I don't see a need to be able to refer to clothing in poses in some coded way... someone could just write out a pose referring to their piece of clothing. If they do it all the time, they can make it a macro.
Big no to armor and weaponcrafting. Those items require scrutiny and for someone to just pump out weapons and armor that may not be themely would be awful for the game. Same reason why we can't make disguise items.

Well if you gave that sentence any kind of thought instead of just dismissing it outright you'd realise that all sorts of oversight could be built into the system. I get that you can just say "game balance" and that's basically a buzzword for "this is how it's going to be and if you don't like it too bad" so ya, good on ya for making a command decision though, assuming you are the one responsible for that.

"Well if you gave that sentence any kind of thought instead of just dismissing it outright you'd realise that all sorts of oversight could be built into the system."

Excuse me, but I did give that post thought before posting, and did not outright dismiss it. I think it is a bad idea, and for you to just take up this snarky attitude with me because I disagreed with you isn't very constructive. I said why I did not like it, simple as that.

If you think it can be built into the system, tell us how, instead of just expecting it to be done.

I'm not making some command decision, I don't know what the hell you're on about there. I gave my opinion just like everyone else in this thread, Jotun.

It could very easily be built into crafting in a very similar way value is built in. I've seen it work very well in multiple other similar themed games. I could certainly go into a bit more detail if you like, but as J-man said it's probably not going to get any love any time soon so the details are pointless.

I didn't mean to offend, just to point out that given a little thought, possibly even examining things others have done in the same vain, it's certainly not an insurmountable task.

1. Just want to point out an inconsistency in what people believe here: Luck is baked into just about every roll you make. If you have @luck on, you are utilizing your luck for a majority of your skill rolls. I double checked, and it is already a factor for @finalize.

2. Being able to pre-@finalize to get the 'quality' is an interesting concept. My worry is that people would, as someone else pointed out, buy 3 of a material, @pre-finalize it and then pick the one that they got the best score on and just use that, discarding the rest, or reselling them in some way, which would throw things out of balance.

I do not think a 'blend' of skill rolls is the solution. Skill rolls are already a blend of an individual roll being done N number of times, so they are inherently already a blend.

I'm open to hearing about ways we could improve this without creating a system that is super easy to game.

3. As for the comments on patches and such-- I'm not interested in penalizing people who are correcting spelling, pronoun, or grammatical mistakes. The system for ICly updating clothing is for repairing IC damage and making IC alterations. I haven't heard anything compelling with regards to changing the IC system-- but I am open to ideas on how we could improve the system from an OOC standpoint so that typo style corrections are not considered part of the IC changes being made.

I'm reluctant to create a @typo-fix verb that just lets you change the descriptions because I worry people will start using that to make larger changes. I suppose we could limit it to a couple of characters at a time, but someone with enough time could slowly replace an entire description like that. I'm also reluctant to make it an approval system that requires a GM or builder to review the changes before accepting them. Crowd sourcing it to PCs might work but if we had an approval system like that, it would take a few days turn around, and we'd have to lock the item down from editing during that time completely or by the time the change was approved the description being edited might have changed, making it moot, or worse, it would replace the wrong text.

For correcting typos:

What if you put a one hour timer on a piece of finalized clothing that allows further changes and re-finalizations to be made without changing the value? This would give tailors a chance to make last minute alterations after they first make a garment without being penalized, while still preventing cheese later.

A one-hour IRL window to make re-alterations with no penalty would be an amazing way to fix up an outfit. Adequate time to really do those final touches that you notice once you're wearing it, like pronouns that need changing and grammatical fixes!
Yeah, Vera's idea would be a good way to improve QoL without diminishing risk in regards to acknowledging poor quality themselves, as well as other problems that you notice after finalization.