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Grapple revamp.
Seize Control, or struggle, strangle or punish

Grappling as it is, is a relatively flat, non-dynamic and strength based system. And doesn't reflect the reality of grappling. What I would propose is the addition of a couple things for both grapplers to do.

Struggle/squirm, in replacement of resist for the non-dominant grappler.

This would be an exhaust essentially giving up trying to get out of the grapple in favor of trying to minorly wound or exhaust the grapple controller as much as possible. However with enough agility or strength, this would be able to be mostly ignored. This would allow someone with much higher levels of endurance to essentially force a draw or over on a strangling situation, by exhausting the target enough that strength wasn't enough to contain them. At which point, the grapple breaks.

Seize control, in replacement of resist for the non-dominant grappler

A compared agility and strength check, to seize control and take the position of grappling leader. Essentially someone may outmatch you in the department of strength, however you might have them beat in flexibility by a lot, allowing you to get behind them and get them into a choke. This hold could then be broken with struggle or control could be seized back, however you would have delayed their strangle until they could do one of the two.

These two replacing the current resist would basically add an interplay, do you want to go for control and fuck with the asshole grappling you, or do you want to exhaust and eventually get out? They also add more stats to the equation than Strength.

Replace the grapple controllers automatic strangle in combat with a switch, between

Punish, deal bruising and minor exhaustion compared to choke. The damage from this would be based on agility. And punshing would leave you more vulnerable to people taking control of the grapple.

Choke, Deal minor bruising to the neck and head, and major exhaustion compared to punishing, Enforcing the stability, but leaving you more vulnerable to the grappled person exhausting you quicker with squirming and breaking the grapple sooner.

This adds a byplay and reactivity to the usage of grappling. And brings it closer in line with the reality of grappling IRL without bogging it down with too much systemization.

Next I have two ideas for essentially moves to pull off, just two ideas and they are superfluous to the main point about grappling, and they are based off professional WWE style wrestling not sport wrestling. As sport wrestling is basically a martial art of it's own. But basically these moves would be overmatch disengages, ones that would show the person who you are grappling with that you're very much beyond them.

Suplex, you're grappling with someone, overmatch them heavily, and suplex them, pulling their head into the pavement and injuring them.

Throw, another overmatch, though on of a lesser degree than a suplex, essentially prone someone and deal minor damage while disengaging the grapple.

Grappling is not just a factor of strength IRL, it's a measure of coordination, flexibility and application of that strength. The addition of additional options for grapplers is a good idea, as it adds flavor and complexity to what is ultimately a very simple system currently.

Grapple isn't just dependant on strength. :)
Should have removed the reference to it being a strength based system. It's not entirely strength based, but in the majority, strength is used and has applicability in all of it's checks. With standard hits being used for the initial grapple gain, and endurance being used to "resist" the strangle.
Actually once again you're wrong, strength isn't involved in all the checks and it's not mainly strength based either.
Then how about with you miraculous knowledge of the system you elucidate or address the fact that it's a flat system without much interaction that can take place? Or byplay between players?
I'm not gonna talk about mechanics, but agility is already involved. If you search the forums for the grapple update post you'll see what is used during grapple and it's a three step system involving three stats.
Oh you literally mean the thing I've already addressed,

IE using a hit check to engage the grapple?

It involves a bevy of checks these days and is different than the old grapple, and has been fully implemented for at least a year and a half.

I assure you, strength is not the end all be all of grapple.

3. Overpowering the Victim - much like the old grapple system, your ability to overpower depends largely on your physical strength and your potential skill at holds.
It doesn't use a hit check, there are three steps involved and it definitely isn't majorly strength based like you suggest. The reason you can't 'damage' in a grapple because the grapple is already risky as it is and why would you be able to get hit by someone if you pass all three skill checks? Realistically makes sense. Gameplay wise? No.
Again read my post, I'm not suggesting replacing the hit checks, which is literally the two steps before what I'm talking about, I'm saying that the system as it occurs, WHILE grappling or grappled,

Is flat. Is static. Is mainly strength based to resist.

They even mention adding shit like what i'm suggesting in that post.

We've written all this on a new object and rewritten the master grapple code so we can better support future modifications:


* reverses / counters


You're saying if you get outmatched at strength but have more flexibility you should be able to get out of the grapple.

Thing is if you do have more flexibility than the grappler, you wouldn't even be in the grapple in the first place.

The reverses/counters could be added to the MA skill (since they already do affect grappling anyway) but considering MA is already a little overpowered, I think things are good as they are.
Incorrect. Could be using a mismatched weapon, and thus be easier to grapple.
I think this conversation has gone about as far as it can go at this point.

Rest assured we are constantly looking at these things. Should we see a need for a rebalance it will take place.

I do think it would be nice if there was some way to not escape the grapple for weapon users without MA skills have a chance at doing something like stabbing the grappler.
I think the crux of the issue is being missed in discussion here. It's not about poor mechanical balancing, it's about a lack of things to do once in a grapple making for shallow, uninteresting combat once grapple is applied.

In open combat you can:

- Flee.

- Disarm

- Grab/Wrest

- Switch weapons

- Grapple

- Change posture to:






In grapple you can:

- Struggle (Automated).

That's 10 times as many options in open combat vs one once grappled, and the one option that does exist once grappled is done with no input from the player anyway, entirely removing the player from the combat experience at that point. I lose interest completely in combat once grappled as a result unless the character manages to break free and I can have input into the game once more. More options whilst grappled would solve this for me, regardless of if it realistically upped my chances of escape/survival.