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- PsycoticCone 1m
- BigBiscuit 2m
a Mench 10h Doing a bit of everything.
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Cyberlimbs on Momento NPCs
Secondhand hands, man.

I think a good solution to building a consistent secondhand limb market and low-level ripping trade is to add cyberlimbs to NPCs.

The spawn ratio on these NPCs should definitely be significantly rarer. I'd imagine something akin to 1/30 NPCs that spawn in a day. The cyberware itself would not be good. It would carry the generic or a worse cybernetic description/coating. In addition, it have a much higher processor load and be half-rotten.

Lastly, these NPCs would possess neural processors in the worst condition possible that would be likely to go rotten in your hand instantly upon removal.

Great idea, I definitely want to see cyberlimbs more prevalent in the world and on PCs. However, I do worry this could lead to an increase in 'farming'.
For the record, it's 'memento'. It's named after the memento design pattern.
Even brand new cyberlimbs would be generally less valuable than other Big Ticket Items that fall under farming rules, would they even need so many downsides?
This sounds neat. Its a start anyway. I guess I just don't understand why this game is so afraid of cyberware and chrome in general. I like the idea of tiers - and low-mid tier chrome should be swamping the streets in a cyberpunk city I'd think.
@Plebe

1.) There is a prevailing belief that if you have cyberware in the mix people will kill you for shiggles for owning chrome. Having chrome is your character having a walking payday glowing in his eye socket that will only lead to your inevitable death and ripping. So pay shit tons of money for a giant bullseye on your back in a game where people are encouraged to invent random reasons to fuck with and kill other characters. No thanks, I choose life.

2.) Too fucking expensive. Chrome to me really only exists for two purposes. Replacing lost limbs, or enhancing your body. So let's look at each one.

Well, you lost a limb. Usually you've probably just lost two but lets say you lucked out and someone only hacked off the one. Now you've got to pay to get a cyber limb. Well, a limb costs 8,000 and the processor costs 6,000. I don't have 14K just lying around. And realistically you probably lost that second limb so your final medical bills is around 25K.

Leaping from Gold and getting new limbs through the Vats costs 5,000c. And oh no, you gooped? That's 15K to get fixed apparently. So 20K in total there on the outside chance you goop, but realistically only 5,000 to repair your clone's limbs as opposed to the 25K I do not have lying around for random limb loss.

And when it comes to enhancing effects, welcome to Corpie world money. Anything that could really improve a character to a discernable degree is going to run you about... 25,000c. And that is just the base floor stuff like a Skillsoft or a Stat booster. Yes the processor and chrome only cost 13K but a soft chip that I'd pay for (instead of just investing a few days learning a skill) is going to run me about 6 to 10K. Bringing us back into the 20 to 25K ballpark for just starter chrome. Other more interesting chrome is astronomically higher priced.

I'm barely making rent some weeks and you want me to spend how much on something I'll instantly lose when I'm inevitably killed?

There's just my two pennies on why cyberware ain't moving.

I would love more NPCs in general to have visible cyberware and the few that have it in their nakeds to possibly have it be a colored naked at the very least to fit into the vibes. Having just the aesthetic more present on not just PCs would be fun.

Like Rex Gold or Juicy Vee - why those bakas not rocking fancy gold or titanium chrome? Flex that wealth.

On the alternate side - why aren't there like beaten solos in the mix with a cyberarm or leg that they lost in a big score. Thats a fun little story and good visual flavor too.

Anyways, even if the chrome is not rippable, and its just visual flair, I would love this.

@Risikio

Consider reviewing HELP SUICIDE, I've pulled an excerpt from that file for your use and posting it here for ease of access.

In real life, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. In Sindome, the availability of clones makes the "solution" APPEAR to be a nice, convenient way to escape the problem without the permanent result.

But the human organism didn't evolve to act this way. While the conscious mind might regard fatal self-harm as desirable, the unconscious human brain still rules. The self preservation instinct is extremely strong and the IC motivation to suicide MUST be justified.

To quote from elsewhere - the situation of "players deciding that their characters would suicide, for some benefit to their next clone" is METAGAMING.

That's right. Metagaming. So, your character's motivations to kill theirself or to allow theirself to be killed by someone else had better rise to the level of motivation which would be required if permadeath was anticipated. The convenience of clones is an intellectual point, not something which admins regard as having the power to overrule the human preservation instinct.

You should never, kill your character off because it's the quick or easy path to a desired outcome. In the specific example of a cyberlimb, committing suicide because you lost a limb results in denying RP for a whole host of people: The doctor who performed first aid, the surgeon who has to install the limb, the cybertech who has to work on your equipment and, perhaps most importantly: the person who took the limb, or paid to have the limb taken through someone else. Backflipping off the skywalk because you don't want to have to use a wheelchair or RP not having a hand cheapens the gameplay experience for people on both sides of the table from you, both ally and enemy alike.

I would say that help file is more referring to situations where a player is benefiting/avoiding at their character's expense, specifically from what I remember, where players were repeatedly suiciding their characters without any real IC justification. A character being permanently disabled and unable to work or function short of a new clone or replacement cyberware would certainly qualify as an IC justification I would think.

In fact the availability of cheap clones was the one of the reasonings behind the lack of cheap cybernetics/prosthetics:

"You guys are forgetting that the wide availability of cloning for all levels of society has made cheap cybernetics moot. Cheap cybernetics are often used when you LOSE a limb in CP, it's not usually an elective to get some broke ass hand or arm instead of your meat.

In Sindome cloning means you don't need to worry about this. Unless you're adovating for Clones suddenly costing 50K For a rejuvenated body, and 5K to restore you to your last state of your clone of your previous state, then maybe we can do something like that, but until then Johnny's response has always been that there is no market for junk cyberware or anything that can be solved by simply cloning into a fresh body.

Same thing with BioMods. We're not Deus Ex, because Deus Ex doesn't have advanced medical and genetic technology like Sindome has, we don't fit into that cyberpunk box very well."
@TalonCzar

I'd like to direct you to the opening scene of The Sixth Day (2000).

XFL Quarterback Johnny Phoenix is sacked hard and has multiple spinal discs pulverized. He's loaded into the ambulance and the 300mil a year lifetime contract is a vegetable. Corpsec dude just sighs and kills Johnny in the back of the ambulance. Next scene on the TV Johnny is going to be just fine, and be able to play in the next big game! Why? Spoilers: He's secretly been cloned. Instead of having a guest spot on Veggitales, the QB is murdered so that he can play in the big game next week.

Later on there is a scene where a Corpsec agent is mortally wounded and he just casually kills himself because it would be too much work (expense) to transport his dying ass, so he just kills himself. His clone gets out of his goo bath and is in a bath robe by the time the team gets back, meanwhile he's bitching about him still wanting his fair share of the cut.

Considering the developers at the time took the RePet name from 6th Day, one would think that the view on the sanctity of life and cloning would line up.

As for the Withmore Tradition...

"We cut two limbs off because that forces them to choose between suicide and taking our loan."

~Spoken openly and repeatedly by gangers on PUBSIC

Ok. This is not roleplay. This does not "foster" anything. If an option given is suicide then it is strong arming the other player into either taking the loan or metagaming. Or cheating.

Why has the community looked the other way on this toxic OOC behavior for so long?

Why does staff directly tell players to take the loan or be punished for OOC cheating when the players forcing the newbie to cheat remain unpunished?

Just a FYI cyberlimbs were lowered in cost and PDS load to encourage players not to suicide after a severing.
Two things:

@0x1mm There's zero ambiguity in the helpfile about killing yourself for limbs. The quotes you pulled were from other threads discussing why cyberware isn't as prevalent as in Cyberpunk 2020 or 2077.

@Risikio

Cutting someone's arm or leg off isn't toxic behavior. I don't know why you would think this. Limb severing is done in one of a handful of situations: either you've ICly done something that resulted in a 'lesson' being handed out, or you've successfully gotten under someone's skin. Severing a limb can vary from a light reminder of the things you've done to earn it, as in the case with Yubitsume or finger severing, or it can be an extreme punishment worse than death in the case of cutting pairs of limbs off.

The entire point of severing limbs as IC punishment is that you're not just getting vatted. Killing people doesn't change much other than hitting them with an arbitrary death tax, or racking up their DCD count, in the case of older characters. Killing people often generates far less RP than a limb sever. And reminder: RP is sort of the entire point of the game.

"We cut two limbs off because that forces them to choose between suicide and taking our loan."

~Spoken openly and repeatedly by gangers on PUBSIC

This is NOT spoken open and repeatedly by gangers, plural, on pubsic. What the hell? Just because one or two players are doing a thing, does not make that thing the norm.

As for the OPs idea, +1. Is thematic, but doesn't necessarily serve a purpose other than looks.

I maintain that help file refers to players making gamey choices that their characters wouldn't conceivably make in-universe. For example killing themselves to get a quicker trip to Gold. Call it the Watsonian versus Doylist distinction.

If there is a prohibition on characters pursuing suicide rather than continue to live dysfunctional existences devoid of limbs (or even both eyes, which kept happening until it was disallowed) it's very much news to me because it was coming up a lot due to dismemberment going a little overboard for a while. Those choices just have to come from a character perspective not a player one (for example, a person might not in many cases prefer suicide to the loss of one eye or a finger, but they might consider it after the loss of hearing, sight and speech combined).

@Risikio

I don't think I was clear. I didn't mean to chastise players who are afraid to own chrome. I understand that very well. I meant the game itself basically sanctioning off cyberware from a good portion of the playerbase due to it being unaffordable/unrealistic to maintain. That isn't to say there aren't plenty of folks in the mix who can and do afford to maintain it, but that isn't the norm.

I guess this is contentious, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, but its always been something that irked me because I would think that cyberware of different calibers would be flooding the streets in a cyberpunk world. Even homemade stuff. Its just a question of theme and catering to oldbies/those in the know. Or is that part of the theme, and I just missed it? I get the haves vs. have nots but cyberware - at least to me - should be ubiquitous across classes theme-wise, only varying by quality and grade.

I think my point is is that cyberware is underutilized by a good portion of players and if we are worrying about NPC's spawning with cyberlimbs too often then maybe we're worrying about the wrong things.

"Or is that part of the theme, and I just missed it?"

Yes, sort of, historically. I linked a past discussion where this topic comes up but in the past the game pulled a lot more from cyberpunk media where technology and biology are things at odds with one another. Where cybernetics came at the cost of a persons humanity, and were not necessarily viewed with much affection.

This kind approach was an echo of early cyberpunk media which was considerably influenced by the angst and fear of technological advancement during the 1970s and early 1980s, especially in America. The genre as a whole got way more embracing of technological progress and transhumanism over the next few decades, although there is almost always some negativity and pessimism preserved there.

That said, the game's approach has changed a lot in this regard. Things like customized cyberware, lower PDS impacts, more accessible chrome have all come in in the last 3 years or so, so the trend has shifted, but I suspect there will always be some lingering 'Cyberware is Bad' theme remaining even so.

Cutting off a limb isn't toxic. That's... whatever. Sure teaching a lesson. Whatever.

I'm saying when the statement is "We are doing this to force you into a situation where you are compelled to commit suicide" is made, that means that the option for suicide is totally a valid answer. It isn't my problem that this solution is quick, easy, and a benefit to myself. The option was given as part of "roleplay", but suddenly I'm going to be punished for actually roleplaying out extreme grief and loss at the sense of trauma, self worth, etc followed by suicide, only to have the surreal horror of being dragged back to the world of the living like nothing happened. But fuck that roleplay, right?

Why am I going to be punished for roleplaying this out? Because a staff member's friend wants to get paid. And staff backs this bullshit. And that's what's toxic. That doesn't encourage roleplay. That encourages players to quit Sindome.

Oh, is killing myself to get my limbs back cheating? Well then forcing a player to either break the rules of the server or pay me multiple thousands of chy should be seen as even worse activity.

And when staff uses their XHELP speak to directly say that they will OOCly punish the character committing suicide instead of paying the 30K that their friend's character wants, then yes that is toxic as all fuck and the staff members encouraging this cheating behavior should be punished.

While we're at it, can we get rid of the Suicide booth while we remove the mechanic of those corpies killing themselves after losing their jobs? I mean, you lost your corpie job whoopie doo. They're just going to be given a golden parachute and they're just choosing a temporary solution to a blah blah blah... they no doubt have a clone when they jump too... and if nobody would ever think of killing themselves after losing body parts, then no true Scots- Withmorian would actually kill themselves over something as trivial as losing a job or an arm.

But anyways, since we've established that committing suicide as roleplay is cheating, what should be done about those players forcing other players to consider cheating as a roleplay option?

"Why am I going to be punished for roleplaying this out? Because a staff member's friend wants to get paid. And staff backs this bullshit. And that's what's toxic. That doesn't encourage roleplay. That encourages players to quit Sindome." -Risikio

You haven't interacted with any of the posts that came before, or OPs, you've simply bemoaned one IC situation that happened to your character and cast blame on multiple PCs, characters, and staff without taking a step back and asking why it happened.

Maybe what really happened is that your character got dealt a shitty hand and rather than deal with the consequences for a little while you wanted to take the easy way out immediately. Nobody said the only option was paying 30k. And if you didn't pay 30k? Same outcome as you suiciding your char.

---

On the discussion of cyberlimbs, one thing to note: flooding the market with cheap cyber is going to make getting a limb after a sever super trivial. If this is implemented as something on mementos that PCs can actually take and use, then make it have more debuffs. Getting diseases can be one.

Suicide simply to avoid IC consequences is poor form and can result in further IC consequences. The help file on this is pretty straight forward.

Putting aside the accusations that Risikio has made (I will xhelp them and speak with them about what they are implying), I'd like to address what I think is the core of their point:

Characters have agency in how they live and how they die. If someone wants to roleplay out the consequences of their IC actions, for example, they pissed off some syndicate member who had their leg chopped off, by spiraling, losing their shit over time, and eventually killing themselves because they can't see another way out, that is perfectly acceptable roleplay.

What would not be acceptable would be losing the limb, and immediately being like 'welp no way out just kill me and I'll clone out' because it invalidates the RP that led up to that moment and avoids the consequences by avoiding the roleplay that comes from having the missing leg.

That's the difference in my mind. Roleplay out the consequences, mental and physical for the character, and go where it takes the character, be it a cyber limb, begging, or cloning out.

(Edited by Slither at 6:03 pm on 2/9/2023)

I'd like to take a moment and apologize for becoming a bit too heated and not controlling my words. I gave the impression that the staff were being not fair and favoring PC's and their actions over another.

After speaking with Slither about the incident I was referring to, I'm sorry that I said these things in haste. I misinterpreted a somewhat canned response from staff at the time and let it get stuck in my craw a bit. And after I got heated in this thread, I spoke out of anger and rudely painted the staff in a bad light because of this.

After discussing things with Slither a tiny bit, the incident is resolved on my end, and I retract any implication against staff being complicit in anything.

I will do better.

I have been thinking about how to address this without leaning into some IC data, but it is simply not possible. So if this goes to far feel free to delete.

The issue I have with the current model of the second hand cyberlimb market is that there is simply not compelling savings over just getting a limb, unless some very particular things align.

People have quoted some prices here, so a limb 8k'ish processor 6k'ish. I think both are in a good place in terms of price. Despite what has been said, 14k is not entirely impossible, but it is enough of a sting to some to make them realise it is bad.

Now we look at the second hand market. Legitmately installing second hand chrome costs you 3k. Illigitimate pricing may vary but likely to be around the same spot. So that is already 6k just on install fees. Lets say second hand limb and processor currently go for half what they do we are talking about 4k for limb, and maybe 1-2k for processor. So around 11-12k.

Now if we put NPC's in the mix with limbs you can rip, you need to pay a ripper doc to pull that chrome, and install it.

So if you are friendly with a ripper and get lucky on an NPC then yes, you likely could make a saving on a limb. But honestly that is already a big potential.

Limbs have some of the smallest mark up of any cyberware, practically get installed at list price. So there is little fat to trim in terms of savings.

This is not to mention custom limbs which are a sure fire way to get who ever lost it come hunting you.

NOW, some, myself included might look at the above and see the potential for RP here. Befriending a ripper, befriending a solo or of course hunting them out and paying the to get you a limb.

I think for me and my extensive and well-informed experience of this particular topic almost always points back to 'there isn't enough to be saved going second-hand' or 'there isn't enough to be made going second-hand'

Non-combat roles - especially Ripperdocs in a CP world - need WAY more to do in my opinion. This would be a plus side to flooding the market through NPC mementos.

I have to reiterate, too. Its a limb. In a CP role playing game. If, as was suggested, the game world is more chrome averse and more biotech friendly then why does every consequence have to be monetary? Why isn't the consequence be that this chica now needs a metal leg because she can't afford that nice synth-skin one? The actual cost should be minimal and the following RP should deliver the consequence right?

Plus - more to do for non-combat characters.

Just like to point out that Rippers, along with doctors, data brokers, fixers, market runners, runner runners and well, basically almost all the non-combat characters in the game to some degree all benefit from one thing.

Conflict. Violence. MDK's. Vattings. Corpses. Suicides, & etc.

The game's very sleepy at the moment compared to historical highs (and even lows, I'd aruge) and as a result there isn't a hell of a lot going on for non-coms. What conflict that does seem to be going on tends to be pretty tightly contained.

It might be a bit self-serving but when I've had the chance to do medic and other non-combat roles in the past that would benefit from the fallout of conflict, I'd tend to try and drive content for myself and others in those professions during slow periods.

The issue with making NPC's drive this sort of content is that once market need has been met, or people get tired of doing it, then that's basically going to be that until the situation changes. Killing a NPC and ripping it isn't going to inherently drive or perpetuate additional RP beyond just using a verb and maybe selling the ripped item. This isn't the case with PVP conflict. And while NPC's should be treated as PC's, there shouldn't be an expectation that staff has to come in and moderate people murking NPC's for lightweight RP.

It doesn't matter what the conflict landscape is or isn't if there is nothing in the economy to supply some aspect of it. Players don't buy janky second-hand cyberlimbs even though characters in the world might be expected to because there is no reason to do so, and no supply.

All cyberware inputs into the economy are new cyberware, through a kiosk. Any Neuromancer-style janky Russian wartime prosthetics are elaborate custom jobs done by players at additional expense for aesthetics ends. None of it does anything really, it's entirely about the aesthetic presentation of the world and the characters in it.

Another object input into the game doesn't solve any economic issues for anyone, but it might make for more commonly seen cybernetics in the character landscape, which I think is a win in and of itself because players routinely remark about how non cyberpunk the game feels and looks. The potential for rippers to maybe get some extra gameplay out of it is a bonus, but hardly a necessary requirement by my thinking.