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Unthemely SIC banter

This bothers me. But if I'm the only one it bothers, then it probably doesn't matter all that much. So I should ask: does this bother anyone else?

These Public SIC "jokes" are tragically unthemely. The OOC intent is clear: injecting OOC edgelord "meme" racism into the game in a manner that attempts to side-step the fact that the only prominent social issue left in the world of Sindome is related to the Class Divide.

I personally find this really, really bothersome and immersion breaking to the point of feeling pretty shitty. Just to be clear I'm not bothered by IC racism. I'm bothered by the immersion-breaking OOC intent behind these tasteless jokes.

Can all the people doing this please stop? I get that maybe some people feel smug or self-righteous about getting a response like this to their memeing, but after you laugh about it could you go ahead and not inject tasteless, immersion breaking OOC-fueled jokes like this into the game anymore?

Here are some copy-pasted segments from in-game, which have been edited to remove any actual IC information. Maybe I'll still get banned for posting this, but... Well, hopefully not.

"There's no difference between putting down a dog and shooting a rigger. The *** do it all the time."

"I'd stiff a jiggly rigger to be honest."

"A jiggly rigger."

" **** wants to segregate the riggers"

"What do you have against riggers?"

"I hate riggers because they make a lot more mess and are very dirty. Especially the ones that work in ****, I gotta work the mop a lot more for those dirty riggers."

"Exactly. I have to sweep extra hard when riggers are involved."

"A rigger once even stole my broom."

"He had a broom. Until the rigger stole it."

"Wow, **** really hates riggers."

"I don't get why **** is only now hiring Riggers. It's 2103...."

"Good thing **** doesn't hire riggers. Otherwise I'd never use one."

Technically, there's nothing unthemely about racism. It's just so infrequently pointed out because of the more prevalent classism issue...

However, it's kind of annoying to see someone use it this much in a mocking way that the most I am willing to do with censorship is suggest they diversify their material at this point.

I get what you're saying; I mentioned that I'm okay with IC racism. If Staff decides this really isn't an issue worth exploring, then that's okay and I'll just drop it.

But I feel the need to really, really, really clarify what I was complaining about, because I was 100% not complaining about the thematic validity of IC racism.

I was taking the stance that the ooc intent behind that rather long string of SIC banter was so obvious and ham-fisted that immersion broke for me personally (Which again if it's just me, then it's a non-issue and I'll move on).

Because it's obvious to me that OOCly people just wanted to giggle about wordplay indicative about a racial pejorative. Which is exceedingly easier for way more people to identify than a B-Movie quote.

Not only that, the way these players went about it curtails the ability of others players to have their characters respond to the comments as IC racism.

This string of SIC banter was not IC racism. ICly It was just people making silly comments about other people who operate a certain type of equipment in the Sindome world.

But in a world where racism is so infrequently pointed out because of the much more prevalent classism issue, it's reasonable to think that most characters wouldn't have the knowledge or context to realize that "Segregating riggers" refers to something 143 years or more out of date.

When you focus on the past, it dilutes the immersion of the current year and theme.

It's much more immersive to use game world references and examples when discussing something or trying to prove a point. It might be more difficult, but it is also more rewarding.

I think the distinction is fair and you're fine to bring it up. Like most other instances where something is going on that is breaking immersion because of player behavior, usually the best thing to do if it's bad enough to genuinely bother you is xhelp it, explain it constructively, and let staff consider the situation and take further action if they feel they should.

This specific exchange aside, there are times when SIC banter gets too...I don't know. 'Memey' might be the best word for it. It's been brought up before in the past, not just related to SIC but the game in general, regarding making certain jokes or references, and it's something we should all be aware of. Sometimes I think we (myself included) get going on SIC, or in a group chatting in a bar, in some good chunk of banter or whatever and it slips away from SD-character-RPI-cyberpunk exchanging into people in an internet chatroom joking with each other and the other trappings fall away.

I think it happens because it's natural and it's funny and can be enjoyable, but I do think sometimes it goes too far or for too long and it does feel like we lose the feel of the game. I don't think it's a serious problem 99% of the time or anything, just something to keep in mind.

Don't run shit into the ground, bakas.
While we're on the subject of racism and its thematics.

What would be some acceptable slangs to throw at people of other races that are both themely, and don't break the IC/OOC line when it comes to a character's behavior? I'm talking about trying to avoid the very obvious N toss for something people are less likely to get OOCly offended by, if they're hit with IC racism.

Seems like something that's somewhat important to know.

OOC I'm black, but when I first read the original 'rigger' thing (not that exchange but the original line)... I turned into a five year old. Dave-Chapelle-that-lives-in-the-back-of-my-head popped up and made an inappropriate joke. Then I started banging my fist on the desk and laughing, as I'm prone to do when I find something stupidly trollish and funny. It was a Blazing Saddles moment for me.

That's probably because I've gotten to trust the staff to not take IC racism to an OOC hurtful place now. I used to not to--when you don't know people, you aren't sure what they're going to do so you put a wall between yourself and them to take care of yourself. And god knows there's enough reason in general gaming to take care of oneself!

I remember reading some episode review of Mad Men on a blog called Tom and Lorenzo, and they were discussing something the secretary character, Joan, said to a woman of color that was shitty and racist. The bloggers said... she didn't do it because she was racist, she did it because it was the lowest-hanging piece of fruit she could grab and so she went for it. I think in the world of SD (as I have seen happen before), you'll find people tempted by that low-hanging fruit and they'll grab it, try to smash it in your character's face, and they'll try to get away with it afterwards.

What YOU should do IC is call them out on their old-ass views. "This isn't the 1900's, baka, it's 2103." Meaning, yeah you got that little jibe in, but that won't work over and over. So if you want to play hard, don't rely on ancient insults like that. Go for what's real or go home.

Anyway it sounds like some players were being edgelords and if that happens again, you should xhelp it. You can take a joke so far and then it gets meme-y, and that what OP listed got pretty meme-y. Staff'll zap it if they see it.

Racism in 2103 is ridiculous and antiquated and does not exist on a systemic level in Withmore. A character may carry prejudices, but calling a black person the N word to hurt them is 2018, not 2103.

More themely stuff would be making fun of Russians for being Genetek's bitches, or calling Mexicans poor, or side-eyeing people from the LTC with the suspicion that they may have illegally modified genes. Martians are weird lunatic anticorporatists. Moon people are insane failed commies. The Chinese are imperialist bastards and the Japanese are smug rich assholes who think it's the 15th century. Americans are poor and stupid. Use the timeline and get themely with your insults.

On another note I have recently seen a bunch of homophobia and transphobia that are both very offputting and absolutely not themely. There are nanoaugmented trigender gene mods with studdleys roaming the streets and these people are putting on overt displays of wealth that are absolutely out of reach for the average person, so why are people bitching about run of the mill femboys? It might be weird and some people might take issue with it but hearing an NPC SIC a bunch of slurs that are dated (and misapplied) even by today's standards is fucking bizarre.

Under a cyberpunk lens these issues are anti-authoritarian and transhumanist, so why are people going 'lol traps' instead of hollering about genetic purity, religious fundamentalism, or the evils/benefits of body modification? It's lazy, do better!

And remember wih any of this stuff that we have a diverse playerbase and you never know who you're hurting. Keep it IC.

I'm not sure if it's good or bad that I completely missed the parallels to 'riggers' and segregation. I was online during the conversation, and I truly thought that people were just being stupid about wanting to hate on riggers.

Having re-read the conversation, it's obvious that some people stepped over the line in a tongue in cheek kind of way that really wasn't cool.

Can we just leave all the RL, wack bullshit that is going on in the world these days out there, in the real world? If you want to troll people, go on Twitter or Discord or where ever else it is that mouth breathers go these days to feel superior while putting their ignorance on full display.

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I play games to escape real life. I get enough of that crap on the rare occasions when I'm around a television, or having a conversation with random people at the bar.

"Under a cyberpunk lens these issues are anti-authoritarian and transhumanist, so why are people going 'lol traps' instead of hollering about genetic purity, religious fundamentalism, or the evils/benefits of body modification? It's lazy, do better!"

YES. These views in 2103 are too old for so many people to be echoing them on SIC, why are so many ranting about femboys? Why is this repeatedly a joke? In the future, gender is just another biomod like getting a tail or some eyes. You don't like something, go and change it. Flash rules everything.

even though you acknowledge the irony of your own statement, Ephemeralis, would you perhaps have any tips or ideas to put forth to actually do anything about this instead of contributing into the same ironic cycle?
ephemeralis, do you have any examples of what you're talking about?
In general, using modern day slang and slurs should be avoided like the plague. We have cyberpunk slang for a reason. It's geared toward the injustice and themes of the GAME world and avoids the issues modern day correlations and consequences of using racial/gender/orientation slurs.
The words we use in a cyberpunk game should be used in such a way as to increase the immersion of yourself and others, not to detract from it, even unintentionally.
lol ephemeralis you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about
You know, I will fully admit that my original post was only for the sake of complaining, criticizing, and asking three or four players to "stop" something I did not like and believed to be a detriment to the game experience as a whole for many others in the game.

And then I saw lots of other replies to this thread which were also how to add to the experience for everyone. Alternatives, suggestions, and just really nice insight on how we can all improve the game from the perspective of what I originally complained about.

And that just made me feel a lot better about it all. Extremely nice to see that so many people wanted to create, where I wanted to destroy. Thank you for that.

I showed up wanting to complain about something, but also ended up getting many good ideas on how my character might be able to discriminate against others, in a context that falls in-line with the game's themes and atmosphere.

I am going to re-iterate what I said before as I want this to be seen and followed.

Racism as a casual shot to get a rise out of someone is not against the theme. It should not be used as the prominent focus of someones RP, though.

If I want to casually call Seven Ecks a mexican racial slur because he pissed me off, and I leave it at that, and move on with my Cyberpunk revengerance and fun subterfuge, no one should get in a twist about that OOCly and they should probably not even acknowledge it ICly, it's just an insult, and it was just a glancing blow.

We should expect that in humans whether it's 2018, 2103, or 1903. Humans no matter how far along the time line will result to the easiest way to get a rise out of people, and ethnicity/race/culture is always going to be easy ammunition, especially in Cultural melting pot Withmore.

AGAIN THOUGH, it should NOT be something you're focusing on, it's not a primary theme component, it's not something you need to go on a crusade about, it's not something you need to point out every time you speak or insult someone, it's not something your character should invest paragraphs of RP into, and it's certainly not something you need to react in a huge defensive fashion about as if it should not even exist in 2103. It's present, it's insignificant, and it's going to happen, so both sides should treat it as such.

No prominent focus of racism in the theme unless guided by the class divide, transhumanism, cybernetics, nanogenics, politicial alignment, Sindome related religious divides, etc.

Racism is what people tend to resort to when they're at their most vulnerable or weakest point in their hate. It's the product of having a lack of justification for their anger, outrage, and violence. So we cannot smother it out completely, but it most certainly should be seen as lashing out from a position of weakness.

We got rid of the Aryan Brotherhood faction that was added to the game years ago, but we didn't stop those NPCs from believing they're superior to certain people.. We just don't focus on it, we don't include the ideology in their RP as their primary purpose.

Please follow this example.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Em9NDCgkybA
"Get the hell off my sector you filthy tea-float." -Judge Steele to some random Brit.