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Safe zones in bars

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So since the new gang code thing, all bars and restaurants in the mix have been no-trouble zones, and in my experience this has frequently been enforced with 100+K bounties, overwhelming response from high level NPCs or max XP staff alts acting like NPCs, or an equivalent level of force via PCs acting on behalf of NPCs.

To a certain extent this is fine as there need to be hangout zones that aren't constantly exploding and some of these businesses are run by very scary people, but there really should be some kind of clause where if an immy is hiding in a bar and refusing to leave while talking shit to a mob boss or something everyone should be ready to look the other way when they get dragged out and beaten. Same for pickpockets.

I bring this up OOC because I've seen it happen four times over the past month and it always feels like an OOC thing. It was also a pretty frequent occurrence when I used to play and there was a big silly metagame about how to trick people into going outside.

By Vera at Aug 11, 2019 10:38 AM
Em, I think you are confusing few things.

1. Code only applies to gangers, no one else.

2. The NPCs responding in certain bars to having ruckus there do so not because of the code but because, well, having people fight/snatched from a bar is bad biz.

3. Still, people get dragged/killed in bars all the time. But you have to take into account that doing this in someone else's place of business may very well have consequences.

Now whether it's worth to possibly anger person X and drag patrons out of their bar, to take it out on someone shit-talking, that's your decision to make. Even as ganger it's not black and white law, and code is broken quite regularly, and then matters are settled, one way or another.

By Marleen at Aug 11, 2019 10:44 AM
All due respect Marleen I've been playing this game for years, have had a max UE character, and have done more violence and crime then most people ever will so I'm speaking from a deep well of experience here.
By Vera at Aug 11, 2019 10:51 AM
I am glad to hear that I am wrong just because you did play longer.
By Marleen at Aug 11, 2019 11:01 AM
https://youtu.be/xzpndHtdl9A
By Vera at Aug 11, 2019 11:12 AM
If you want to only discuss the problem with people you think know more than you do, use xhelp my dude. If you post it on the BGBB it's fair game for discussion for everyone. If someone's response isn't helpful to you, you're not obligated to respond to them. You can totes listen to my advice, I've been playing way longer than you Vera.
By Jameson at Aug 11, 2019 11:27 AM
It all boils down to who you are. If you are some fuck boy yanking people then you get what you get. If you are that guy everyone knows will come back three times a day in box xo5 and big blaster then in my experience they just get big mad for a minute and let it go. I think they do an -ok- job of regulation. Especially when you are disguised.
By Grizzly666 at Aug 11, 2019 11:44 AM
I just think it's annoying that a nobody can talk all the shit they want and just sit in a bar and there's both an IC and OOC expectation in place that nothing can happen until they leave. It's immersion breaking and in most cases just results in both people standing there waiting until one of them has to log off.

I've seen some action happen in bars (raids, assassinations, kidnappings) with variable success. That part seems to be fine, but it's bizarre when solos are being called in over perfectly reasonable barfights.

By Vera at Aug 11, 2019 12:11 PM
I just think it's annoying that a nobody can talk all the shit they want and just sit in a bar and there's both an IC and OOC expectation in place that nothing can happen until they leave. It's immersion breaking and in most cases just results in both people standing there waiting until one of them has to log off.

I've seen some action happen in bars (raids, assassinations, kidnappings) with variable success. That part seems to be fine, but it's bizarre when solos are being called in over perfectly reasonable barfights.

By Vera at Aug 11, 2019 12:11 PM
I don’t disagree but fuck it. Kill assholes in bars. In my opinion, the bar rule is to avoid idlers getting killed and the inevitable griefing. If someone is actively taking shit - do your thing.

I think ultimately we should seek to get to a place where nearly all Red Sector bars are player managed/leased. It helps keep it all in the family.

By ReeferMadness at Aug 11, 2019 12:33 PM
The bar rule as I understood it was to allow these gang members to rp with each other outside of combat. At the end of the day it’s an ic thing. So if you disagree by it just don’t abide by it. Fuck yo mega excessive bounties that probably cost you more then you make!
By Grizzly666 at Aug 11, 2019 1:21 PM
The rules in place are IC rules and vary from place to place and person to person. There is no OOC rule saying you can't snatch/fight/attack/kill/steal in a bar. You can go for it if you want. Some do and some get away with it. Some do and have to deal with consequences - IC consequences. Some can shrug those consequences off and others are nearly crushed by them.

And each bar is different. There are some bars where doing these things is going to be the next best thing to a death sentence if the proprietors manage to ID you. There are some bars where there is little risk from doing things like this unless you are a ganger under the code and are caught.

End of the day, do what feels right for your character. Maybe they are just too angry and they let loose and deal with the repercussions. Or maybe they are savvy and manage to get away with nobody even suspecting. Or maybe they have deep connections they can call on to clear the way.

We do encourage our players (especially our more experienced players) to try and pick paths that drive more story and RP even if it isn't the most favorable for their PC and we expect everyone to follow our OOC rules and not be meta. No murderhoboing. But otherwise, feel free to push the boundaries ICly. :-)

By Mobius at Aug 11, 2019 2:12 PM
I have to agree with Vera on this one.

Granted, Mobius, some bars and clubs are 'harder' than others, but there seems to be a trend of throwaway characters who very quickly jump down rabbit holes of suicidal behavior when it makes absolutely zero sense ICly.

Hardcore gang? Mob boss? Legendary solo? Who cares! Let's just throw characterization to the wind, discover the well of infinite courage and talk shit on SIC from one of the 'safe' bars or a cube. Ludicrous suicide by player be damned.

Taking actions against these players often results in xhelps or thoughts- and to a degree, rightly so, as it -is- immy bashing. Dragging them out of bars that are known to post very large bounties is a death sentence if you get made. Playing an established character means you have reputation, loot, flash, etc. on the line you are risking by taking these actions, where the person throwing shade against said characters stakes... losing 2-3 weeks of UE? Big whoop.

In summary, there certainly feels like there's some OOC knowledge transfer happening here, as the bars don't have giant flashing signs that say "--> SAFE SPACES <--" over the doors. And there is something to be said about going into a bar and RPing beating the hell out of someone as a lesson, which doesn't seem to happen all that often anymore outside of player-owned businesses.

By TalonCzar at Aug 12, 2019 6:18 AM
It makes me wonder why a 2-3 weeks character talking is so dangerous to your character? If you are known and famous there are going to be hundreds of people who will shit talk you behind your back, or in front of you if they are dumber. Are you going to hunt down all of them? No matter of consequences? Or are you going to just pick the new characters who do so?
By Marleen at Aug 12, 2019 6:29 AM
So is it more “New people aren’t playing to my expectations of how I see my character “ or is it “bars have excessive protection “?
By Grizzly666 at Aug 12, 2019 6:50 AM
Look Marleen,

I'm not going to get into the weeds here with details as that's IC information, but when brand new characters start seriously trash taking you to the extent that it's 'Fuck your face, fuck your mom, fuck your house and your couch, I'm going to perm you, blah blah blah' then completely ignoring it ALSO has consequences.

As for the issue of age- I don't find oldbies tend to have issues with taking things up in the meat in a real and tangible way. From personal experience, it's not said legendary solos, hardcore gangers and mob bosses sitting in bars and running at the lip endlessly. Jousting occurs, shit gets flung, and then people get bodied, as you'd expect.

If we want to have the conversation about small worlding, then we can, but there are two sides to that argument. Is it possible that targeting someone on SIC for talking shit is small worlding, when we would expect thousands of people to be bitching at the same time? Yeah, I think there's an argument to be had there. Is it -ALSO- small worlding for characters to pick your character out from said thousands and start talking mad shit? If clause A = true, then clause b = true.

We always have to be aware that despite the cries of small worlding, our characters have to stand out from the millions for some reasons or another. We Otherwise we simply wouldn't be playing with one another and be doing spoofs in bars all day. That's just the fact of life of RP games. Just like disguises, there has to be some suspension of disbelief for these things to work at a fundamental level.

By TalonCzar at Aug 12, 2019 6:59 AM
@Grizzly666 I'd go with bars have excessive levels of protection.
By TalonCzar at Aug 12, 2019 7:00 AM
My honest opinion based on what you wrote is that you just want to control the narrative more than is really possible. I absolutely do not know the IC specifics, but I can see why people would shit talk about some big-time ganger in bars, my PC surely does/did that, even without meeting the person shit talked about before. Just based on IC hearsay.

And are you going to pick on every single person like that? Nah. It's the price of fame/infamy that people will talk shit about you. And truly unless you want to kill every single person doing so, well... That is a bit small worlding I think. And while there may be the price for ignoring it, it shouldn't be much. Or just wait for one of the immies to eventually leave the bar and then toss them down some roof, make a splat job of them right outside. That will also make a point, and without angering the person at the bar. Or better yet, hire someone to do it.

By Marleen at Aug 12, 2019 7:48 AM
Given that I've had a character dragged out of a number of different bars, I am going to say that the idea that Bars = Safe Space is kind of ludicrous. As others have pointed out, there might be repercussions for attacking / kidnapping / etc people in / from bars, but those repercussions are not severe enough to keep it from happening.

In my case, my character was dragged out of some pretty well protected / well known establishments.

As a couple other posters have pointed out, I think players need to weigh the risk / harm of having some blank immy talk smack to them on SIC versus silencing the smack talking immy.

By Hek at Aug 12, 2019 10:52 AM
I am talking about someone saying something like "fuck you seven ecks youre just a pussy ass bitch" to his face and then sitting down at a booth and telling him, "neener neener, code says you can't touch me in here so I'm going to keep calling you a bitch all day."

It's stupid and immersion breaking and in the past I've seen it enforced with a severity that implied an OOC expectation. But I'll take staff at their word if that isn't the case now.

By Vera at Aug 12, 2019 11:23 AM
But... You can react. Right in that bar, or wait outside if the heat from the bar is too much for you to handle. Just that if you act inside, or outside, there may be IC consequences. You are just another mano in that bar, and if the owner is bigger fish than you, why would he let you beat up other customers? Is bad biz. And this is a reminder that there are bigger motherfuckers than you around.
By Marleen at Aug 12, 2019 11:35 AM
You don't know what you're talking about or what I'm talking about.
By Vera at Aug 12, 2019 12:06 PM
I haven't played as much since the mix code came into existence, but I remember blood baths in practically every single red bar, and there used to be repercussions then. I think what OP is saying is that since the IC code changes, the fallout from starting shit feels disproportionate. I haven't seen it firsthand yet, though, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.
By kroack at Aug 12, 2019 2:44 PM
My point is that if a player or NPC wants to keep trouble out of their bar it's perfectly reasonable for them to try to do so. It is not extremely reasonable for NPCs to call John Wick on a middlebie for bitch-slapping a dip who refuses to step outside.
By Vera at Aug 12, 2019 2:53 PM
I actually do agree with this. Especially when said people *cough*dips*cough* start shit IN bars, but "Ay this bar has a reputation. Don't escalate.", and then still refuse to step outside. Pull a weapon?

AY! Thirty Kay on that random shrouded fuck that was just here!

By Seir at Aug 13, 2019 7:08 AM
And...Marleen, the code applies to everyone. Especially the non gang related parts. It's more just if you're worth fucking with for it.
By Seir at Aug 13, 2019 7:09 AM
If someone gets caught dipping gets dragged out of that bar, I can't imagine that anger of the bar owner would last past saying to the angered NPC: "this shithead was dipping in their bar". Because having dips work in bars is bad, especially if they are bad enough to get caught. But that veered pretty far from going on about immies shit-talking to the seemingly very specific case of a dip caught dipping and there is a bounty for someone dragging that dip outside.
By Marleen at Aug 13, 2019 7:23 AM
I actually made both cases clear from the jump as they're both things I frequently see happening and have watched NPCs throw overwhelming force at without any understanding of the situation, which is why I made the thread.
By Vera at Aug 13, 2019 7:48 AM
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