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[Feedback Needed] Attack & Kill
Every accidently neck snap someone?

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We are looking for feedback on attack & kill. And a possible change we are thinking of making, but want to know how many people it would mess up.

HOW IT WORKS NOW:

'attack' and 'kill' are the exact same thing. They do nothing different. They are just aliases of the same command.

If your @fatal is on, and you 'attack person' or 'kill person' you will enter combat with them. If you take them down to their last health, you will make them 'dead'.

If your @fatal is off and you attack or kill someone, you will enter combat with them and if you take them down to their last health, you will KO them.

If you 'attack' a KO'd/laying their dead person, you snap their neck, regardless of your @fatal.

If you 'kill' a KO'd/laying there dead person, you snap their neck, regardless of your @fatal.

They are the exact same command.

THE PROBLEM

Combat is hectic and crazy and you there is a lot of scroll, especially in big fights. This can lead to you neck snapping someone you just wanted to 'attack'.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION 1

We add a third argument to the attack/kill command.

'attack bob fatal'

This would neck snap someone if they were KO'd or 'lying there dead'.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION 2

Attack/Kill will both make you enter combat as they do now. No change there.

However, we make it so that 'attack' will not neck snap a KO'd/dying person, and instead you get a message like 'Bob is unconscious, try killing them'.

If you type 'kill' on a KO'd/dying person, you will snap their neck.

FEEDBACK

Both these solutions will allow for less accidental neck snapping during big combats. We want to know the following:

1. How did you think this worked currently?

2. Do any of you currently use 'kill'.

3. Do you use attack to attack and kill to neck snap currently?

4. Do you like either of these solutions, or would they mess with your muscle memory?

5. Do you have any other suggestions?

-- S

By Slither at Sep 19, 2018 7:28 PM
I think making kill a command to kill and attack to just KO would be nice, I generally approach it like this anyway.
By Varolokkur at Sep 19, 2018 7:31 PM
I use kill because it's faster to type. I tend to forget if @fatal is on during a fight when it happens. It would be nice to separate the two, but I feel like I'm going to go right back to typing 'kill'.
By Supermarket at Sep 19, 2018 7:32 PM
I like solution #2.

I use 'attack' when I don't intend to attack someone lethally and 'kill' when I want to attack lethally or necksnap. I honestly thought that's how it worked.

By waddlerafter at Sep 19, 2018 7:33 PM
Combat gets really hectic in group fights, you're more worried about getting your hits in and doing your part so you don't lose. Most of the time this leads to accidental neck snaps, I think the second option of making attack not snap necks would be great. I use attack all the time anyways unless I intend to kill them, not really for any reason but my OCD.
By Cyberpunker at Sep 19, 2018 7:34 PM
The second solution seems apt.
By Warlord203 at Sep 19, 2018 7:34 PM
1: I thought attack and kill did the same thing. But, just in case, I consciously use attack for sparring for instance, and kill when I think someone deserves to die.

2: Yes

3: Kill for necks

4 I like the second option as adding a third word affects just a bit of your speed and precision in what is a hectic situation.

5: Why not setup @fatal to work on the commands themselves. Make attack non-lethal and make kill lethal. Toggled the moment you entered it. When you're being defensive, it auto-sets to attacking not killing. Because if you were killing someone in a defensive situation, you should have to make that a conscious effort by typing kill.

By Damarung at Sep 19, 2018 7:34 PM
We can't make it automatic. @fatal applies to when you are attacked as well. We also need it for NPCs.
By Slither at Sep 19, 2018 7:36 PM
1. How did you think this worked currently?

I usually type kill if I am using my primary weapon anyways because that's what it is for. If it is hand to hand I probably just want to KO them so I toggle my @fatal.

2. Do any of you currently use 'kill'.

Yes. It is my go to.

3. Do you use attack to attack and kill to neck snap currently?

I type kill for neck snaps and to attack. as stated in number one, if I want a desired effect I just toggle @fatal and switch the method.

4. Do you like either of these solutions, or would they mess with your muscle memory?

It would likely mess it up for me.

5. Do you have any other suggestions?

I like attack being a non-kill blow mode and Kill being a kill-blow mode. If i ever want to kill a KO'd person, I type 'kill so and so'. I've never typed "attack" to give a death blow.

Hope that was constructive.

By Grizzly666 at Sep 19, 2018 7:37 PM
if im just getting into a fight to beat them up/rob them/ teach them a lesson, i use attack to initiate combat

if im playing for keeps and want the other guy to die, i use kill to initiate combat

had no idea there was no difference between them.

i think solution 2 would be a lot easier to use.

By Storm at Sep 19, 2018 7:38 PM
Easy way to fix that is...

@snap neck is warning.

So it prompts a warning message to confirm if you're sure if you want to snap their neck, any command other than 'y' automatically cancels it.

@snap neck is no

Instead of prompting you a warning, you cannot snap necks at all, no matter hard you bash 'attack' or 'kill' key.

Something like that.

By Beepboop at Sep 19, 2018 7:38 PM
@Grizzly: I don't think option 2 would mess you up. Basically, you'd just be playing as you are now. You'd neck snap anyone you typed the command on, or enter combat with anyone awake.
By Slither at Sep 19, 2018 7:38 PM
@Beepboop

Good thoughts, but we can't add a prompt. Combat is too hectic with too much going on already, having to read/respond to a prompt with that much scroll would cause lost commands as people missed the prompt, or typoed, or the Y/N broke because of scroll or some other thing.

By Slither at Sep 19, 2018 7:40 PM
Ah yes, I'm sleepy. You're right.

By Grizzly666 at Sep 19, 2018 7:45 PM
1. How did you think this worked currently?

As it works currently, a lot of accidental neck snapping happens. Sometimes I took this as the other person not being able to take more physical abuse and hence you accidentally killed them. But its seems its not how it really works.

2. Do any of you currently use 'kill'.

I use kill because I wasn't user using attack was going to snap necks, now I know it actually does.

3. Do you use attack to attack and kill to neck snap currently?

Yes.

4. Do you like either of these solutions, or would they mess with your muscle memory?

Maybe it will get some getting used to.

5. Do you have any other suggestions?

If your @fatal is set to mercy maybe don't allow said players to use neck snapping commands or maybe like it was previously suggested trigger a warning that needs confirmation.

By ErgoProxy at Sep 19, 2018 9:01 PM
I knew both commands entered combat, and that neither would kill if @fatal is off and the opponent is still standing, but nothing else about them. I use kill exclusively as it's easier to remember because it's a command from a mud I've played for years. If and when it becomes a more integral part of my gameplay, I'll continue to use kill if the mechanic doesn't change. The triggered warning suggestion seems useful - I've seen it work in other games before. Just set the warning prompt to a different color so it's easier to pick out in the scroll. If player inputs "y", his or her @fatal is flipped off and they neck snap. Player has to manually turn it back on after.
By RatchetEffect at Sep 19, 2018 10:33 PM
I knew both commands entered combat, and that neither would kill if @fatal is off and the opponent is still standing, but nothing else about them. I use kill exclusively as it's easier to remember because it's a command from a mud I've played for years. If and when it becomes a more integral part of my gameplay, I'll continue to use kill if the mechanic doesn't change. The triggered warning suggestion seems useful - I've seen it work in other games before. Just set the warning prompt to a different color so it's easier to pick out in the scroll. If player inputs "y", his or her @fatal is flipped off and they neck snap. Player has to manually turn it back on after.
By RatchetEffect at Sep 19, 2018 10:33 PM
I would not be in favor of a prompt.

If you are meaning to kill someone, then pay attention to what is going on. I’ve been in a ton of group assaults, or defending from multiple attacks, and I fully understand it is a pain in the ass. However, if you’re paying attention it isn’t that hard. If you manage to drop someone and you mean to vat them, seconds matter. Especially in a multiple combat situation where lag often happens. I’ve missed opportunities with lag before without a prompt.

If you are accidentally neck snapping well...🤷🏻‍♂️

By Grizzly666 at Sep 20, 2018 6:10 AM
How about an entirely new verb that only KOs regardless of @fatal? Like neutralize.
By Kuzco at Sep 20, 2018 6:37 AM
Participating in a chaotic fight and accidentally killing someone is themely. Yes, dying and losing all your gear and chrome sucks, but GMs do that to PCs deliberately... so it can't be that bad.

I use attack to hurt someone and can always stop attacking.

I use kill to kill - and stop attacking or back off if necessary.

I do forget about fatal sometimes. I have it off by default anyway as I personally prefer to let people survive to enjoy conflict - but if I have an IC reason, then I can just type it kill again to finalise the kill, if my attention isn't taken by someone else who is attacking me (but that's a pretty valid obstruction and my own fault for not remembering to turn @fatal on).

By DiamondNine at Sep 20, 2018 7:42 AM
Attack should not necksnap dying people. Only kill should do that.
By Vera at Sep 20, 2018 9:14 AM
To quote Vera from another post, this seems like a solution looking for a problem.

The only reason to 'attack' a KO'd / incapacitated person is to kill them. There is a reason why IRL the legal repercussions of attacking someone on the ground are much more severe than simply kicking / punching someone who is standing and able to defend themselves.

The way I understand the 'problem' is that in hectic melees where a lot of people are fighting, Person A might accidentally 'attack / kill' someone who Person B just knocked out. Or put another way, it is not a 'problem' outside of big combats where Person B would be completely aware whether or not their victim was conscious / at risk of being killed.

To me, that seems completely realistic. Combat is messy, and especially combat with multiple combatants. If people are so hyped up that they are not aware of / able to keep track of the status of the people they are in conflict with, that's just life. If you don't want to accidentally kill someone, don't attack them. Or evaluate their condition first and then attack them.

Based on a brief discussion about this on xOOC, it seems like the real 'problem' here is the 'neck snapping' message. Players take the 'neck snapping' as a deliberate action. I think the entire 'problem' can be remedied with a more generic fatal message. "You strike a fatal blow." or something similar.

By Hek at Sep 20, 2018 3:10 PM
I do hope someone eventually makes it so that combat stims force @fatal if the dose/purity is too much for your character to manage.
By Vera at Sep 20, 2018 3:36 PM
I don't want an extra argument check. There is enough to keep track of and sometimes I need someone to be dead right goddamn now. Just make it so attack won't necksnap and kill will.
By Vera at Sep 21, 2018 10:02 AM
What Vera said, basically.
By Jameson at Sep 21, 2018 1:37 PM
What Vera said, basically.
By Jameson at Sep 21, 2018 1:37 PM
@Hek I think you missed the point here. The problem is people not realizing someone is KO'd because of the massive amount of scroll in a 5v5 fight, and typing 'attack ' to attack them and neck snapping them because they were KO'd when the command was typed. Or the person got KO'd right when the command was typed by someone else.
By Slither at Sep 21, 2018 4:02 PM
I can't find any problem with making "kill" snap a neck, and "attack" only attack, without snapping a neck.
By villa at Sep 22, 2018 5:56 AM
Solution #2 seems like a great idea - I use attack to initiate combat and kill to corpse people. Always have done that, but I'm also guilty of suddenly corpsing someone when I just meant to attack without realizing they were already unconscious.
By Rangerkrauser at Sep 22, 2018 6:28 AM
This is done.

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/new-game-features/-major--attack-will-not-neck-snap-310/

By Slither at Oct 19, 2018 10:32 AM
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