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Servie abuse
Consequences will never be the same!

Regarding servies:

Working servie isn't a death sentence like people are making it out to be.

What IS true is that a lot of disgraced corpies and fuckup mixers go work servie and bring their pasts with them.

If you're a player who harshly abuses servies for no other reason than reflex against servies as a class, is that something that you think is an example of theme that you're supposed to follow? Do you think that servie abuse which you have seen is occurring in a vacuum, regardless of the individual targets?

Learn more about why exactly it is that specific servies receive the hate that they do, and, let the rest off easier. I'm not saying don't haze them, but don't make their life out-and-out impossible unless they have earned it.

I mean, sometimes they do.

The theme is that, yes, they should be abused, but in reality it's appearing far more beneficial to not abuse them. You can majorly cut yourself off from a lot of hustle and leverage if you abuse them. I'm not sure how to reconcile this.
I forget what GM it was that brought this up, but unless you live and work in the park, all mixers are service mixers. I think focusing on mixers that work on gold or green just because they do is a -bit- overdone, and kills a LOT of opportunity for cross-class RP. Having a service mixer that can operate as an in-between gives solos, supports, fixers, all kinds of people access to chyen for plot.
...Is the theme that? As was said in the other thread, everyone gets their money from corporations at the end of the day. What makes a CGH guard any different to a KMB bouncer? I'd say it's more about how you act. If you act like a wannabe corpie and shit on other mixers, expect to have people with problems. If you just do your work on Gold, then come back to the mix to live and spend your free time, then you're not really different from anyone else.
The theme is that, yes, they should be abused

Hazing, not scorching the earth.

When did we say it was theme to treat service workers like actual corpies?
That's what I'm saying! NEVER. But read this and you'd think that it's Gospel - with apparent approval from at least some staff.
It's a sub-class that goes to work directly for corpies, usually in a fairly ingratiating manner and everyone knows it. They have all the means to protect themselves from the majority of danger and eschew Mix life and have incentive to kiss up to corpies and spurn Mixers as they try to fast-track themselves to corporate jobs. I don't see any reason they -shouldn't- be targeted IC, that seems pretty themely and the likely tradeoff for working a cushier, safer job out of the Mix. That not everyone who takes those jobs does it for those reasons and that just kind of sucks for them seems themely too.
Everyone works for the Corporations. Everyone.

There are service workers on Blue, Green, Gold and Red, in every imaginable context. Everywhere, millions of them. It's not thematic to target any one class like this is Call of Duty: Neuromancer Edition, it's smallworldy and illogical. Immersive roleplay is more than Red vs Blue.

Character conflict should arise out of social nuance and conflict between actual characters themselves, not out of binary logic for who is good and who is bad.

This is conflict arising out of social nuance though. Just because the entire social strata is a sham and people on the whole are probably more alike than different doesn't mean everyone is ICly aware and cognizant of that- or for that matter, that they're all good, decent people and care whether they're doing the things they do for good, just reasons. That's the whole point of the game, the entire city's been stirred into a cauldron of constant crime, misery and kleptocratism. You're supposed to ICly do shitty things to other PCs for petty reasons. Bullying service workers because they come off as one side of the class system as 'the help' (though with a sort of guarded, condescending acceptance) and to the other side as bootlicking class traitors is entirely on theme.
100% agree with Kiwi. If you're a down-and-out Mixer and the person sitting at the bar next to you is a KMB milkmaid or Bizou barista living the kind-of good life serving corpies, it's logical that you might feel resentful that they aren't "in the trenches" with you on a daily basis. You might not be aware that you're ultimately deriving your living from the scraps thrown at you from the corporate world.

To my mind, RPing from your character's (potentially) limited perspective is much more IC and themely than using broad-vision OOC understandings of how Withmore "works".

I personally think bullying service workers shouldn't be a major thing, even from people with Red. Sure you can hate on them slightly more than normal Mixers. But Service people LITERALLY make the city go round, you could count crate running as service.

If all doctors were actually corporate, would you hate on them still? Or would you actually 'bare' them because they are people who will keep you alive, and help you if you are injured. Nobody hates on Genetek, they're corpies, why does nobody hate on them? They stop your character from being permed.

Service jobs are literally the /lifeblood/ of the city. Money talks sure, but that money is useless if people working in the service job doesn't get your delivery to your door, or that ambulance pilot doesn't get you to the hospital in time.

TL'DR Service people are really important to the city as a whole, and should be respected. Some more than others.

There is some key info about our INTENT behind this label in: Help Class, should all read it before you keep going.
Help Class would be a good one for people to check out. reading that is preeeetty solid written version of our intent behind service-mixers.

I view servies the way one might view the dude trying to escape the hood. Your fellow hoodrats may not support you in that endeavor. They may try to keep you down. They may also try to use your position to further their own goals.

Let's acknowledge that there already is selection going on.

WCS and Chex are perfectly 'acceptable' places to work service for, according to mixers, apparently.

At the same time some of them sometimes appear neglectful toward their duties to the corporations as a result/personal safety concern.

You might not be aware that you're ultimately deriving your living from the scraps thrown at you from the corporate world.

Characters are beaten over the head with this endlessly, some players just choose to ignore it because they find it easier to play My Team versus Their Team, and it's convenient for them to justify their personal quarrels as theme enforcement.

Nothing stopping someone from personally taking issue with a specific service mixer in a specific context, but anyone doing it as a rule, or advocating that it should be some kind of enforced norm, is entirely out of lock-step with the described game world.

The divide that came in three years ago was about divorcing service and corporate, and even that went way too far in many cases. Slither specifically underscored in that thread that service mixers should not be broad-brush painted as the Mixer 'enemy' because everyone is struggling against the same system:

if you work as a medic up at a clinic and come back to the mix and patch up gangers or others in your free time-- while telling your mixer friends how you 'accidently' let a Judge die the other day... who's going to give you shit?

If you are a dancer at Korova and you come back to the Mix and tell your mixer friends how you're working on conning some fat cat corpie who loves to pay you for private dances into being your sugar daddy by getting them to fall in love with you so you can rob them blind-- who's going to give you shit!?

Your character doesn't have to actually be doing any of that. Your character doesn't have to believe what they are saying. They just have to get others to believe it. You don't have to be honest with people. You can lie to them. They will probably believe you. Convince them you hate corpies jut as much as they do-- right up until the moment that you get that sweet corporate gig you've been plotting after and you leave the scum behind in the mix forever.

What ended up happening was that nuance was hard, so players made it black and white and decided X service jobs were okay (because they were the jobs people actually wanted and they had faction support) and Y service jobs were bad (because they were isolated and little wanted jobs and easier to punch down on).

The whole blanket persecution thing needs to die yesterday. Conflict should arise of what specific things characters do, not because they had the wrong label.

Agree with 0x on this one, partially.

For a while now I've thought that if it weren't widely accepted that servies had to be in love with the corps, mixers might get more use out of them. There's a lot that could be done if these servies everyone likes to beat down so often were given a chance to actually prove their worth, rather than be forced to eventually go corpie because the mix is no longer safe for them.

They should be seen as a resource to be used by both sides, instead of one side seeing them as potentially useful and the other side choosing to only see them as walking pinatas.

I agree with 0x1mm here. Not every Mixer who goes corpie is an ass who leaves everyone behind. Not every service is an ass who's /trying/ to leave the Mixers behind. The blanket thing of "corpies are bad kill them all" is honestly really weird in retrospect. Especially since every player (to an extent) and is a corpie, has been a mixer once in their life.
Being targeted for labels is 90% of the game, whether you're Topside or Mix. The only jobs stigmatized as 'servie' jobs are stigmatized for more reason that they're 'easy to punch'- they're stigmatized because otherwise nobody punches them and they enjoy a cushy escalator to the top. None of this suggests you shouldn't use them to plot or pretend to think different to use them to your own ends, but I'm going to disagree with the assertion that 'servies' who work and often live on Green or Gold are just going to pull up a stool at the Drome to moonlight at their old haunts and get a warm welcome.
Kiwi, that's a problem. The assumption is always that a servie is going to become a corporate citizen, but why isn't it that someone is a servie just to be a servie? If you go to a nice restaurant you don't assume that your waitress is studying with dreams to someday become an Amazon Exec, so why do people do with servies on SD?
Being targeted for labels is 90% of the game, whether you're Topside or Mix.

The IC theme is all about sides and factions and conflicts, but it's up to players to understand the OOC distinctions between what drives conflicts and plots, and what snuffs it out. It is necessary to allow for plots to arise from roleplay before just snuffing someone out because they got X job.

Is it possible to justify forcing players to avoid certain jobs based on the theme? Yes.

Does that drive further conflict or does it act as a chilling effect by cutting out an avenue for it? I'd argue the latter.

Setting aside all the philosophical or theoretical arguments about there being millions of service embedded in every level of Withmore society, as Necron very astutely notes, the bottom line is it's just good gameplay to incorporate service into plots as tools towards a further end.

The key to any conflict is contact and although strides have been made to push Mixers and Corporate characters into uncomfortable proximity to drive conflicts, service mixers are the ones best positioned to bridge the gap and start shit in both directions. No one is doing themselves any plot favours by treating them like the enemy wholecloth.

It's up to PCs to manage impressions about them among other PCs that are likely to care or reconsider them. None of this is different for other classes, if anything, this drive for cross-class acceptance is unique.
There is no crossing of classes -- service Mixers are Mixers.

It's also completely untrue that certain jobs are stigmatized because they're too powerful otherwise. Anyone can go corporate, there's no 'ride to the top' because there's no 'top'. It's all just different gameplay, corporate characters aren't 'winning' Sindome any more than anyone else is.

That's essentially misunderstanding the IC theme as an OOC mechanic -- as a general rule the jobs people are persecuted for are not very good, because the actual good service jobs are packed with players who have handwaved their positions as being 'exempt' from any class conflict.

And it's only up to characters to manage their own impressions if players aren't marshalling conflict against them en masse on the boards instead of pursuing their own personal conflicts IC. Service mixers are mixers, period.

If someone doesn't like characters who work at KMB or SAR or Grunen's or wherever else, they have all the means they could want to pursue that IC.

I said this before in another thread, but I think it bears repeating: The motivations of a player and the motivations of a character need be nothing alike.

A character might despise everything corporate, and hate other Mixers for not rising up against their oppressors, and use every opportunity to harm anyone they see as a class traitor.

A player may recognize that this is all just set dressing, and that trying to force conflict against players who are often to equipped to do anything except abandon their roleplay in response, is a less cooperative use of their time compared to pursuing conflict against well-supported players in factions -- and using those more vulnerable players to do so, so that they are involved in a positive way.

Not all conflict is equal, and it's up to players to cooperate OOC to drive the types of conflict that end up spinning into larger and more compelling and more meaningful plots, and sometimes that means pulling punches they can technically justify to allow things to develop.

A lot of this is about balance. What I would like to see come from this is more players thinking about the larger world when deciding how their PCs act. Some will always want to kill all the servies just because they are servies and that's fine. It's when this becomes the default state all PCs take because, let's hop on the bandwagon, that I feel it can become a problem.

And I am going to make a proposition here that some will immediately dismiss but I will throw it out anyways.

There can be degrees of dislike and a lot of fun RP can be born from the escalation or even the deescalation of your dislike levels. Murder and robbery can and should always be a part of the game but I personally think it's fine to start lower on the hate scale (give dirty looks, short responses if any, talking shit about them, refuse to share a room with them) then escalate or deescalate as the RP dictates.

I am not saying reduce conflict. I am suggesting that there should be MORE conflict and that conflict can happen ad many, many levels.

I played a PC who many would call the worst of the servies. They lived and played in the mix. Never even came close to running topside. Of all the hate RP directed at them, by far my favorite was a simple bartender refusing to serve them at the bar and generally avoiding contact while openly trash talking my PC.

That was some great RP for both of us. It was super themely. It went places.

In accordance to theme everyone should be used and abused. Corpies, Mixers and everyone else anywhere in the class spectrum.

The millage on this varies from character to character, but there has to be some degree of class tension in the class divided and the larger the gap between characters, the larger should be the discomfort with one another and if there ain't any, then this is good fuel for social stigmatization Montagues vs Capulets style.

If anything, I don't think there is ever enough of this and most of it is wrongfully targeted to certain groups and not others. The only way I see of this being self-corrected is by characters in those jobs/factions to change how they are perceived by the collective unconscious of the playerbase.

I think the issue is just KMB/Bizou/Grunen's, right?

No one is prejudiced against Clone Angels, Chex, SkyFox, WCS, or even Sing-A-Rong. The difference is that the latter set of jobs serve either primarily Mixers or both classes. The latter serve only corpies.

The expectation is that someone working at KMB/Bizou/Grunens is trying to ingratiate themselves with corpies and become corporate. These characters are then ostracized by the Mix, targeted for extortion and often end up becoming corporate as a means of escaping their now awful circumstances.

That's not the only way of dealing with those characters. Your Grunen's bartender could be selling data on corporate relationships and conversations back to the Mix. They could be serving as a middleman to shift drugs up from Mixer labs to their patrons. Your KMB bartender could be representing the Mix on TV for the whole Dome to see.

Instead we often fall into the easy trap of casting suspicion and aspersion on these people because "corporate bad". What could be good paying, desirable jobs that you need some measure of influence to obtain (maybe you're the topside agent of a crime family and this is your thinly-veiled but accepted cover) are instead ghost towns because people treat Gold and Green sector bartenders as corporate citizens (and believe me, the corpies don't treat them that way.)

Instead we often fall into the easy trap of casting suspicion and aspersion on these people because "corporate bad". What could be good paying, desirable jobs that you need some measure of influence to obtain (maybe you're the topside agent of a crime family and this is your thinly-veiled but accepted cover) are instead ghost towns because people treat Gold and Green sector bartenders as corporate citizens (and believe me, the corpies don't treat them that way.)

^

This. It seems like this reaction is a little unthemely despite being common, and it really loses some opportunity for vibrant RP by setting these jobs up that way.

Lately I've been seeing more people saying, "Yeah I take money/jobs from corpies, they have good flash." This is Good and Themely and just needs to be extended a little further to encompass things like topside bartenders as well. Literally all this would take in terms of changing this cultural attitude would be a few key Mix characters being like "Nah this person cool with the Mix, you take that corpie flash and bring it down here, that's good hustle."

Conversely, though, another issue is corpies being surprised and/or offended that their bartenders are living in the Mix and have Mix friends and sometimes hang out in the Mix rather than huddling alone in a cube on Gold and that can be just as much of an issue.

I think for as long as Corpies continue to put boot to neck on Mixers in person and on SIC as the theme encourages, then it's going to be just as themely for Mixers, to lash out in retaliation to whoever they can, and that makes service mixers the most likely target, because they're reaping benefits that normal Mixers aren't, and if you look at any level of society where class lines are clearly drawn, you'd know this is the most realistic response, especially in such a clearly dystopian and extreme version of the world, this is even more realistic to me.

I don't honestly see a problem even if all service mixers are treated like pinatas filled up by Corpies and sent back down to the Mix to be slapped around until all the goodies fall out.

If that makes the role unattracted to players, then perhaps just like the rest of the game, they should take precautions to avoid that fat.

fate, also, get plenty of exercise. :)

The expectation is that someone working at KMB/Bizou/Grunens is trying to ingratiate themselves with corpies and become corporate.

Is it?

Is it necessarily?

Sounds to me like one of those "received wisdoms" which is only founded in past servies in those positions who might have had specific reasons to be unpopular, or who were told "if you want to go corpie you have to do this first" this by people who were jerking them around for reasons I'm not going to get into here.

I don't honestly see a problem even if all service mixers are treated like pinatas filled up by Corpies and sent back down to the Mix to be slapped around until all the goodies fall out.

Almost all of the serious jobs available to Mixers are service (or secretly outright corporate), but this often gets ignored in these discussions -- often because some players have no idea which jobs are which or how the city actually works OOC or IC.

All of the 'end-tier' roles in the Mix are effectively corporate. Most of the jobs that players and characters actually want to have are service. Many of the roles you think about as being 'Mix' are not -- Red Sector is not some foreign enemy nation in contrast to topside sectors, it's as much a part of the system as any other.

As I've said before this has been done, and it went nowhere. No one is going to push for players to leave the jobs with the best gameplay en masse for some backwards ideological OOC reasoning, so the end result is always going to be a few less-wanted jobs are singled out as 'the corpie ones' and all the good jobs will be handwaved as acceptable.

It's so frustrating dealing with this when it's specifically contrary to what was discussed at length by staff when the division went in. Service are part of the Mix, and corporate characters are not supposed to consider them corporate as a way of enforcing that.

Can a character on their own think all servies are too corporate? Sure, but trying to call for this to be the general theme or marshalling other players to do on the behalf of some call to thematic action has been arbitrarily killing off segments of the game through isolation and neglect for no reason at all.

It occurred to me after Beandip's point that the theme is setting up a general expectation or situation where there are lines drawn around classism.

However, there seems to be a desire to like establish some kind of expectation of RP that the members of these classes receive.

Service Mixers should probably be treated whatever way the person interacting with them decides to treat them, as long as it's themely in the broad sense of the word as it applies to Sindome.

Same for Mixers and Corpies.

I don't think it needs to be narrowly defined so people can expect to get one type of interaction over another.

If I look at this conversation from that perspective, it seems like this is a non-issue.

It's basic mob mentality following from shrewd actors who want to take advantage of a situation. People can and do play that way because after all it's a game and if they perceive easy targets they can easily justify extorting them. In a sense that's what the whole game is about. It just doesn't make sense from a theme perspective.
KMB and Grunen's are often stereotyped by Mixers as untrustworthy places to work, and I'd argue there are some inherent reasons for that. People in those jobs interact exclusively with corporate citizens at work, so those are the new contacts they'll be making. In contrast to other service jobs which require work in the Red Sector, these specific positions allow people to both live and work on Gold. They've historically drawn characters who either needed to leave the slums for some reason, or who were ambitiously interviewing for a more long-term corporate spot.

Given all that, I don't feel it's unthemely if certain mixers start to attach a level of distrust to the position itself. I've seen topside bartenders handle their optics well and move easily on both sides of the divide, which can be very useful to their friends and those who want to do biz with them. Other servies enjoy the relative safety of Hab-X but stop talking to their friends in the Mix, and they shouldn't be surprised when they get treated like vulnerable topsiders.

Approach each person with some nuance, make it interesting!

It's unthemely to OOC paint certain factions or roles as the enemy contrary to the specific instructions given by staff as to how the divide is implemented. This is using IC reasoning to make OOC arguments which is completely backwards and self-serving.

'Kill all the Bratva' is not an appropriate thematic discussion any more than targetting any role or player OOC is an appropriate thematic discussion.

Anyone marshalling forces against other specifics players or factions OOC is effectively metagaming for IC advantage under the guise of discussing theme.

It's already been established over the past two years that players will twist this kind of conflict so that they don't have to do the parts of it that disadvantage themselves, all the while draped in the flag of 'playing to theme' and punching down all the way.

In a sense player's characters are also influenced by their knowledge of the game.

Player type A attempts to follow the theme of the game. They may think that corporate characters are smarter/better than their Mix counterparts and have a feeling of superiority about being corporate. They may be Mixers who hate corporate citizens and see the Mix as some kind of rebellious bastion against corporate influence, maybe even a place of art and culture. But in either case they see an essential division, which is pushed by the games theme and by staff recommendations.

Player B sees the city as being all about money and power without regard to class distinctions. For them, the haves and have nots are divided vertically, not horizontally: there are Mixers and corpies who are haves and Mixers and corpies who are have nots. These players are happy to mimic player A type behavior when it's advantageous to them or when they just want to play an on-theme character. But ultimately they recognize a much greater blurring of distinctions.

I think ultimately it makes sense to draw a distinction between trends and what happens to individual characters. Like someone saying "I ain't got a problem if you work at KMB but -this- bitch all kinds of corpie."

If we set the general theme as, don't work at these places or it's your ass, then no one's gonna want to work at them and from a game balancing perspective that's just making things more boring for corpies who can't get anyone other than aspiring corpies to staff their bars.

I actually think the whole Mixer/service Mixer dichotomy was a huge mistake. What we've seen is that these jobs get divided into ones the Mix is okay with and ones they aren't and the ones they arent okay with, no one wants to work. The game is very Mix centric and I think the corporate experience suffers for it.

It feels like too much to have strict expectations for every player to treat specific class roles the exact same as one another, that's adding a steep learning curve when RP should be unique and flow dynamically based on individual interactions, guided by a broad and general themeliness.

It's unthemely to OOC paint certain factions or roles as the enemy contrary to the specific instructions given by staff as to how the divide is implemented. This is using IC reasoning to make OOC arguments which is completely backwards and self-serving.

Maybe it's because I am newer here, but I do not see SPECIFIC instructions on how to view and interact with specific characters in specific roles provided by staff.

I see guidance dictating the differences between classes, and a broad expectation of how the world treats these facets of society.

I don't know if I could keep up with the game and RP if i had to specifically treat different types of people certain ways in spite of organic RP developments.

If one interaction with a service mixer makes me character absolutely hate the whole class of people, and other people vibe with that sentiment, that's kind of just roleplay isn't it?

The easiest way to fix this would be to single out the topside bartender jobs and have the gangs institute a tax for them. They pay their tax and that satisfies the gangers. Other people can still rag on them for being corporate stooges (or use them as liiasons) but the NPC Mix doesn't care if they're paying up.
They also then become a lucrative source of income for the gangs and that would give them some incentive to keep them from being too ostracized or going corporate.
If one interaction with a service mixer makes me character absolutely hate the whole class of people, and other people vibe with that sentiment, that's kind of just roleplay isn't it?

If you're not then going on the boards and saying 'everyone should be doing this, it's the theme', then sure.

A player is allowed to do whatever the hell they want with their own character to a large extent, no one is ever going to tell you IC 'you're not allowed to dislike X', but there are definitely greater gameplay considerations to be made once players start talking about what characters should be doing to specific factions in a general way on the boards.

Like I've said, this has been done. It will always go from 'persecute servies' (20 million+ IC pop, 50+ OOC pop) to 'persecute bartenders at X and Y' (~200 IC pop, 1-3 OOC pop). It goes nowhere and just isolates 1-2 players while every actual privileged player is completely unaffected.

This is one of those places where I think staff has to be involved. People make their IC decisions for themselves -- you can't tell people to act differently, though thoughts and XHELP can nudge folks. What you can do is have the various staff levers help the non-smallworld world push back, with pubSIC making fun of people who discriminate against service mixers, powerful puppets calling people's positions out as unreasonable and having puppets that demonstrate how the divide is supposed to work.
The easiest way to fix this would be to single out the topside bartender jobs and have the gangs institute a tax for them.

Why not just allow them to pay the same old regular old tolls as everyone else, UNLESS they've screwed the pooch and burned their bridges in some way that has nothing to do with where they work now.

Too often what happens is, because some other servie was seen being forced to pay or die over something which not everyone even knows what it was, the other gangers then assume that that's just what you do to these subclass of Mixers. Wring them for more and kill them if they don't play along.

That is a very large part of what drives these subclass of Mixers to 100% avoid the Mix, which seems to be a large factor leading to the "term limits" problem, which was the thread that inspired this one.

Yeah, I don't think servies make more than regular mixers do, because they have higher risks for being caught doing crime -- and as has been pointed out many times, many servies (like WCS) are treated just fine. They have similar incomes to bartenders at Gold establishments.

This is a theme issue that needs some enforcing.