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Clothes / Wardrobe Diversity
Thematic or technical limitation?

(I am consciously avoiding going into too much IC detail. I am also speaking in broad generalities here.)

Assumption :

My perception / assumption is that we as players / characters limit ourselves to one or few outfits primarily to avoid database bloat and lots of mostly unused objects.

Discussion :

In present day RL, most people have "a lot" of clothes. Dozens of tops. Probably dozens of bottoms.More than a couple pairs of shoes. Jackets. Hats. Socks. Underwear. etc.

It seems like a majority(?) of the characters have A singular outfit. That outfit might change depending on circumstances (robbery, getting vatted, etc.) But for the most part, characters seem to default to one outfit. (An outfit might also be a set of gear, armor, etc.)

Obviously there are outliers. For example people who rely on disguise likely have more clothes "than average"(?). A character who is a tailor, or who has a lot of disposable income might also have more "than average".

Up for discussion is what is "normal" among the NPC population / society in general? Do people, even Mixers, tend to have a few different outfits?

Thematically, I could see having few outfits being normal. I think of peasants in the Middle Ages. They had one outfit. Period. I also think of rural America in the late 1800s / early 1900s. They had work clothes. And maybe church clothes. One pair of shoes / boots. One pair of pants. Maybe an extra shirt, or two. Children passed clothes down to their siblings when they grew out of them.

On the other hand, thematically speaking, cheap depot clothes seem to be limitless. Someone running crates for a day could easily afford half a dozen outfits. People could simply throw their dirty clothes into the chute on the way to the depot to buy new clothes. From that perspective, characters would have a large / infinite wardrobe.

What do all of you think?

I very much think a lot of the lack of extensive wardrobe comes from the lack of appeal in roleplaying that nuance.

Bonus points for saving on overall items in the MOO.

If you don't have at least a different set of clothes for Summer vs Winter then you should look into expanding your wardrobe.
Personally, I enjoy having lots of clothes, but there are some bloat implications. Also, while wardrobes/closets are great they aren't perfect for organizing lots of large outfits.

A while ago there was an @idea about some kind of super-closet organizer that might be a luxury item.

I don't understand anything about code, or what the SQL database does or is, but I know it is some sort of magical info storage thing.

So, to remove bloat from many outfits, perhaps having some sort of dresser/wardrobe device, in which you can store clothes and it "removes" them from the game in a way, but they are able to be called up from the database and removed from the device on command.

I'd say thematically, how many mixers can actually afford an entire menagere of clothing. Sure for corpo's this seems like a fair topic. But for mixers it's unlikely most of them can afford to be wearing one outfit unless they buy handmedown shit from the markets or scavenge it themselves.

personally as someone who loves outfits and tailoring in game, i think its mostly a technical thing. buying clothing that isnt hand tailored by players isnt all that appealing, and tailors can be expensive - also if ur as particular as i am with descriptions not being able to alter them after the fact if u dont have artistry skills can be annoying so people stick with the stuff they have and like

i also think most people who get vatted reguarly dont rly pay attention to clothing as much as well, as why put in the effort if ur clothes are immediately lost or damaged. it is a pain having a lot of clothes though, and i would really love a wardrobe organiser feature or something similar if bloat is an issue

adding on to it being themely though, im not so sure - even poor people today have more clothes, whether its because of extremely cheap fast fashion, thrifting or otherwise. ive often actually tailored well-worn things then said ive thrifted them because i think it makes more sense IC than buying them outright, and i wish more mixers would do stuff like this. i also think that itd be themely for corpies to be buyiing and throwing out clothes regularly that somehow end up in red, to be worn by mixers

personally as someone who loves outfits and tailoring in game, i think its mostly a technical thing. buying clothing that isnt hand tailored by players isnt all that appealing, and tailors can be expensive - also if ur as particular as i am with descriptions not being able to alter them after the fact if u dont have artistry skills can be annoying so people stick with the stuff they have and like

i also think most people who get vatted reguarly dont rly pay attention to clothing as much as well, as why put in the effort if ur clothes are immediately lost or damaged. it is a pain having a lot of clothes though, and i would really love a wardrobe organiser feature or something similar if bloat is an issue

adding on to it being themely though, im not so sure - even poor people today have more clothes, whether its because of extremely cheap fast fashion, thrifting or otherwise. ive often actually tailored well-worn things then said ive thrifted them because i think it makes more sense IC than buying them outright, and i wish more mixers would do stuff like this. i also think that itd be themely for corpies to be buyiing and throwing out clothes regularly that somehow end up in red, to be worn by mixers

I think it's just a matter of the effort it takes to put into clothes. Ordering and such can take a lot, and it takes even more effort as a tailor. It can be a fairly exhausting process trying to create entirely unique items. I think there's room for some IC push for sure, but overall I think people would just like to focus on their RP when they have time. This would be even more true when people are strapped for time.
I always thought it was weird you see some people, even corporates, in the same outfit everyday. Sure, there's item bloat but I think the main reasons are as follows.

-Clothes are expensive, and in the mix, you'll definitely lose them.

-Tailoring can be tiring to some players.

-There's limitations on how truly custom something can be, since you can't actually write messaging for a specific person, which defeats the entire point imo.

I posted about this before, but I think two things would be very beneficial if we want people wearing more diverse threads. And before I forget, the argument that people in the mix are too poor to afford more than one is... Not good. Both IC and OOC. People in the mix do have money, and remember, clothes doesn't necessarily mean diamondweave. Depot clothes are a thing. People are buying candy for thousands but can't afford a 100 chyen shirt? Anyway, two changes:

1: Tailored items should be fitted to the PERSON. I had a thread on this before that I'm lazy to find, but essentially, a command with skillcheck to 'fit x' to get someone's measurements. Once you have that, you can write an additional set of messages when tailoring items, @cworn, @cwear, etc, and those would be added to the item to only show when the person you fitted before is wearing it. Yes, yet more messages to write, but it's optional and incredibly freeing in how you can write.

2: Retail clothing should be a much, much bigger thing, and even a coded job. We don't want everyone splurging on custom clothes, unless they're balling. A lot of the playerbase should, theoretically, be wearing retail clothing. But they don't because one, the difference in cost is minimal, so they'll just get custom clothes, and two, there isn't enough variety.

So... One, retail clothes, especially in red and gold, should be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper. I'm talking like, 50-500 chyen price range. A good like... 80% of the retail clothes out there, I've NEVER seen people wear. Keep one or two stores expensive/elite, but the rest should be way down. Slight exception for clothes with stat buffs.

Two, let players MAKE retail clothing. This should be the coded path for tailors. I know this can already be done in case by case, but it should be mostly automated. Tailor a set of clothes, go to a shop, use some kind of interface or NPC command to hand them in. Staff reviews the items, checks the creator's skills, and decides whether or not to add them to the shop's rotation. Then there's a fancy equation based on units sold, the quality of the items, and the shop they're selling at, which decides on a weekly pay the tailor can go and pick up. Staff can puppet an NPC to announce a new line when they accept one if they feel like it, but otherwise, making sure the line sells is up to the player, all the marketing and networking. After a few months or whatever, staff can review how successful a line was, and make a note regarding that player. If they did well, maybe staff will be receptive to letting them make a line for a better shop for more moneys. If it sold poorly, they'll have to try again and keep at it.

I know it sounds like a lot of work for staff, but it really wouldn't be. Just checking over some clothing items whenever a new line is made and saying yes or no. Basically no more work than requisitions.

So now, tailors don't feel like they have to constantly take custom work and burn out, and they can coast a little off of retail lines. Sure, they'd make more money with custom orders, but I literally see almost every single tailor burn out from constantly writing clothes, even though tailors generally make crazy good money. Now people can have a bunch of outfits, and truly custom clothing for when they want to spend some real money and something that is TRULY made only for them.

Why would anyone want to wear premade items, when the only real mechanical purpose of those items is for individual roleplaying expression?

All of my character's clothing is 'generic' in the sense that it is in IC terms a mass produced item, but I also personally wrote all of it because why would I want to pick from a list of choices someone else made when there is infinite creative expression possible?

An MMO or other graphical game is limited in roleplaying potential that often the only resources available to players are what the developers create and code in. It seems here like a no brainer to me to embrace the freedom and potential of the text medium.

Why would anyone want to wear premade items, when the only real mechanical purpose of those items is for individual roleplaying expression?

Because of the entire point of the thread? Diversity? I also don't see how only custom, hand-tailored items are one's only mean of expression. Someone wearing a NLM Icons tee in the mix expresses more about that character than a fancy custom shirt would, most of the time. There are also many characters who can't make their own clothing, or players like me, who dislike clothing items being massive walls of text, and that's a really awkward thing to convey to a tailor IC or find a nice balance.

Ironically, in only/mainly wearing tailored clothes, people are doing the opposite of what you're saying, they're expressing less than they would if they had more generic clothes, because they're always wearing the same one or two outfits. And again, retail clothing doesn't automatically mean generic. I'd love for eventually, stores having enough of a pool that you can actually go to shops and... Shop. See if you find cool stuff. Yes, you can do this with markets, but there we run into the previous issue, clothes being ill-fitting/having conflicting messaging.

But all that aside, to drive the economy and keep tailors sane. And have fashion be an actual thing, with trends and marketing, etc, rather than everyone just silently making super custom clothes for themselves that they'll wear to their grave.

It's just there's something like 8-10 clothing shops now depending on how you count them, with a pretty huge number of stock items on offer. It doesn't seem like availability is an issue so much as players prefer custom items (if the item is purely decorative).
Though I totally agree brands are apex cyberpunk theme and players who create them are doing cool work, especially considering how much work it is to produce a whole line.
Most of those shops have what, 12 or so different items for sale? Give or take? That's not a huge selection, I think. But I do agree with you to a degree, I don't think lack of variety is the main culprit, it's the price. I still think all the stuff I talked about with coded retail tailoring and PC-unique clothes would greatly help the fashion side of the game, but the biggest reason in my estimation for retail clothes being dead is price.

Personally, I think even the higher end stuff should be somewhat affordable. Pinstripes and such. Hand-made should be the endgame, with your progcloth and diamondweave and whatnot. It becomes a thing of 'I'd only buy this thing to flex money, and I can flex money better by having something hand-made, so...'

Soon as people can go to a shop, see new items coming in, and buy an outfit for like, 1000 chyen? You'll see people using retail and RPing around brands, even if just to push the designer. I think that's more interesting than just 20 phonecalls about making yet another pair of pants, which leaves tailors burnt out real quick.

Players do make retail lines of clothes and there has been some effort to do self-space on leases in the past but it's a major 'loss leader'. Even at in the 10,000-40,000 range for outfits it's often an exercise where when all is said and done, after hours and hours and hours of writing it was more profitable to do just about anything else with their time.

Still there has been a lot of work by players to drive their own brands, even when it can be a nightmare. Just out of the ones that fall under 'old enough for OOC' there is like Fairchild, MixxMuse, CF, YC, NKO, Mix-Ops, Metric, Tantra, Wildfire, and probably five or six more I'm embarrassingly forgetting, and then the 5-10 more in the recent past.

The discussion between @Sly and @0x1mm on this has been thoughtful and well reasoned.

I was inclined to primarily agree with the majority of the points that @Sly has been making. Before doing that, I dug around a few of the clothing stores and am glad that I did.

My impression before digging deeper was that there is not enough of a middle ground between depot clothes and "expensive" clothing. That impression was wrong. There is a middle ground. There are "affordable" clothes that are easily accessible. There are not very many of them though.

I do not see the lack of variety to be a drawback.

Tailoring is practically a PVE activity in a PVP game. There is very little risk to the tailor and often a fairly rewarding payout. There is a small amount of PVP around clothing given the recycling / resale value of some of clothes. Unlike armor and weapons, it's highly unlikely that someone who steals custom tailored clothing from someone will ever wear those clothes themselves.

While the idea of allowing tailors to sell clothing to stores and generate some residual income from it is interesting, I do not think it is a good fit for the game. It's too easy of a payout for the low risk involved. I do not mean to imply that coming up with creative, well written clothing descriptions is "easy". I mean that it is "easy" to make chyen tailoring. As opposed to PVP activities that place a character at risk of waking up in the vats.

YMMV on this, but my experience has been that most "new" tailors will create clothing at the "affordable" price points that are available in some clothing stores. That dynamic gives characters plenty of options to step up from depot clothes without breaking the bank or turning themselves into a loot pinata.

If anything it seems like the high end clothes in the stores are either over priced, or experienced tailors are not charging enough.

I don't really understand your reasoning, Hek. How is making clothes for someone any more risky than making clothes for stores? I have seen some sentiment that generally if tailors start charging too little, other tailors sometimes 'incentivise' them to raise prices... But it's a niche enough thing, since most tailors tend to mark their prices up pretty early on in their career anyway (mainly because there's a ton of demand even for mediocre tailors and they get burnt out).

This dynamic gives characters plenty of options to step up from depot clothes without breaking the bank...

It doesn't, though. On average, I'd say newer tailors will charge generally somewhere between 1-3k per piece, plus materials. I'd also say that a lot of these mid-tier, non-depot clothes will generally cost around 1-3k per piece. I don't think there's enough difference there to justify not getting tailored clothes, which is my point. I can either pay the same amount of money (or close), get interaction with another player and get unique clothes, or I can pay the same amount of money to get no interaction and generic clothes. It's no surprise most people pick tailored clothes.

This isn't all bad. Tailors getting RP is good. I by no means wish to automate all of this, but again, there is disproportionate burnout in this field, there is an abundance of clothes and stores not being used, and there is a lack of meaningful RP around tailoring and brands, in general. The brands 0x1mm mentioned, for example. How many of them are sold retail still? How many of them do players even know who made them? When was the last time you saw a TV or SICad for a player clothing brand?

I think both economically, RP-wise, and variety-wise, the game would be much better served if retail prices were lowered significantly, and tailoring/mat prices were significantly raised. You want to upgrade the depot clothes, go shop at some mid-range stores. Make some money? Maybe you can afford something nice from somewhere in Green. Made senior, promoted to LT? Get a tailor to whip you up something fancy, just for you and nobody else. Let tailors spend their time actually growing a brand and their character, instead of just making (honestly, most of the time) generic custom outfits over and over until they say no despite all the money they're making. Yes, I said generic custom. A big number of items tailors make basically have no reason to exist, it's the same dress or the same shirt that already exists but is written a little differently.

More variety, you say?

I can do that. We keep old tailored clothing around for a reason.

Can anyone give me some brands from characters that aren't playing anymore that you would like to see sold?

Better Than Depot, for sure.
I don't really understand your reasoning, Hek. How is making clothes for someone any more risky than making clothes for stores?

What I was trying to communicate is that tailoring IS NOT risky. That's the "problem" with it. Opposed to other money generating activities which require direct conflict with others, tailoring is "risk free".

Giving tailors ANOTHER way to earn income by selling clothing to a store is a Bad Idea. It allows even more "risk free" chyen to be generated.

This dynamic gives characters plenty of options to step up from depot clothes without breaking the bank...

It doesn't, though. On average, I'd say newer tailors will charge generally somewhere between 1-3k per piece, plus materials. I'd also say that a lot of these mid-tier, non-depot clothes will generally cost around 1-3k per piece. I don't think there's enough difference there to justify not getting tailored clothes, which is my point. I can either pay the same amount of money (or close), get interaction with another player and get unique clothes, or I can pay the same amount of money to get no interaction and generic clothes. It's no surprise most people pick tailored clothes.

After reading this it seems to me like you are completely negating the statement you made a few days ago about there being a lack of mid-tier clothing.

Between what is available at the stores, and what can be created by "new" tailors, characters have options which allow them to easily obtain "better than depot" levels of clothing.

Given that, I will reiterate my opinion that there is not a problem with access to a "wide" variety of affordable, mid-tier clothing. If a character needs something "right now" , they can go get it. If they have the luxury of waiting a little bit, they can get something custom at the same price points of whatever they would otherwise be able to purchase "right now".

Am I missing something? Am I reading a contradiction in your points around mid-tier clothing that is not there?

Tailoring is, like most of the coded jobs in Sindome, as risk-free as you want it to be. Sure, you can sit there and make 50 dresses, pay your tolls, kiss your asses, enjoy the endless chyen. You can also fight other tailors, side with a gang and give them better deals, poke around corporations and try to get some sort of endorsement. All these things can easily get you killed, depending on how you go about them. The same way you can also play corpsec and never even have to carry a weapon. Or be a bartender or stripper or whatever else, be friends with everyone, behave, and get your money with no conflict or danger, pretty much.

I concede slightly on the point that tailors DO make a lot of money, though, and they would make more money with these changes, but only if they're actually putting themselves out there and pushing their brand. I think that's more involved, interesting and honestly, more risky than simply being a tailor that makes everyone their new boots whenever they get vatted and lose them, and not nearly as boring, either.

As for mid-tier retail clothing variety, unless I missed something, I mostly said there isn't much variety in general, but in my replies to 0x1mm I already stated I think the crux of the issue is pricing, not variety. More variety would be nice, regardless.

You said it yourself, the only decision to be made between getting retail or tailored clothes currently is 'do I have the patience to wait for tailored clothes' and that's really shallow. Especially when brands are meant to be a massive part of cyberpunk.

I've always felt like there's too much custom tailoring and not enough mass-market stuff. For me, something super CP is the branding everywhere, and we don't have that.
I completely agree that brands need to be more prevelant.

I think that Butako has already offered to search through trashed clothes and try to recover some of them. Doing that will expand the brands available.