Some thing like.
You say, "I didn't know a Studdly could even rust!"
(Tagalong)
Subtle but there so we know!
No, I don't mean being able to recognize a language you don't know. I mean, being able to recognize a language you do know, but don't know is being spoken until the game finally gets around to giving you that speaker's @voice message - which is when you get to see what language they're speaking.
When I stand there speaking English and have a lengthy conversation with another character who is using a non-English language which my character happens to know fluently, only I don't know the other character is not speaking English, boy is that silly.
I mean, I guess maybe this happens because they don't remember they're not speaking English?
Language notification: Let a fluent language hearer reliably know which language it is that they're hearing fluently. It really shouldn't take 50 turns before I find out we're talking two different languages.
This doesn't feel like a stats issue. I think anyone able to learn a second language could identify between the two languages :P
I do not have any IC experience with languages, but the need to instantly identify when a character is speaking a foreign language is essential.
A common use of foreign languages is to communicate "privately" in shared spaces where (you assume) others do not understand the language.
That assumption goes right out the window as soon as one of the others responds in English, even though you and your friend were speaking Farsi.
It's awkward and annoying to not know someone else is speaking another language, which then ultimately reveals that you understand that language. That's great if it's an RP choice to let that knowledge slip, but when that knowledge slips because the game just didn't inform you they were speaking Swedish at all until it's already revealed you understand Swedish because you've been talking with them for twenty minutes in English while they're talking in Swedish, that isn't cool.
Wanted to suggest having someone's current spoken language always appear in red or some other colour like when you check your /speaking so that it stands out. Not realizing someone is talking to you in a different language just because you happen to understand it is really wonky and unrealistic. Someone's @voice should proc more too, in person and over devices which I think someone complained about or suggested on the BGBB before.
I wouldn't even know how to begin coding it. Maybe track it similar to 'watching'. Toggle a variable when a language is spoken?
glance people
glance ways
glance speaking(?)
speaking Rychek could give you his speaking message the next time you hear him say something, OR it could give you the speaking message you would have received, but didn't, the last time he said something you heard, whichever has precedence. Precedence meaning it doesn't really help to get his speaking message next time you hear him speak, if you JUST heard him speak and are trying to know how he sounded.
Or, you know, fuck it, let's keep this simple.
@options ospeaking - toggle a setting which gives you the speaking messages on every utterance you perceive.
I think that there is an intentional threshold set before the speaker's @voice is inserted into the dialogue for the first time.
Or put another way, there is an expectation that one character has to listen to another character for a little while to pick up on the specifics of their speaking style.
If there were an @options ospeaking , I hope that it would only start echoing the speaking messages after the threshold for detecting them is met. In other words, NOT the first time a character speaks.
Bonus points for showing the profeciency of the person speaking or listening :)
Language and voice are related but definitely not the same.
@fopsy
I can't think of any other system in the game that reveals the competency of another character's skill. Doing that for language seems like a bad precedent to set.
Especially if they haven't spoken enough complex sentences to judge it.
It was more in the sense that someone who does not understand a language will ever get a message that intrinsically tells them it is a certain language.
If you do not understand a word of russian, and someone is speaking it, you perhaps should not be informed that they are indeed speaking russian.
That's a really good point.
"Jane is speaking NOT ENGLISH in a @voice"
Or maybe ANOTHER LANGUAGE instead of NOT ENGLISH so that it's more generic and applicable to characters who do not speak English.
Anyone who can't understand the language someone else is speaking doesn't need a message at all to tell them it's not a language they understand at whatever level of fluency. They already know this because of the juebuhgu*.
Anyone who does understand it enough to potentially mistake it OOCly for something else they know shouldn't have "what language is this" behind any sort of check, they're already understanding it.
* $jargon
Fair enough :) I have not personally experienced that, so I did not really know :D
Still a more constant reminder of language you are speaking or someone else is if you do understand it fluently would be great as originally stated to avoid the akward.
Person A speaking russian
Person B speaking english
Neither knowing what each other is speaking for a while till they see an @voice prompt.
Anyone who does understand it enough to potentially mistake it OOCly for something else they know shouldn't have "what language is this" behind any sort of check, they're already understanding it.
This seems to be the real crux of the issue. Characters who have spent considerable UE or chy to become Fluent in a language wishing to keep that knowledge secret, then accidently outing themselves because the player behind the character does not realize what language another character is speaking.
Because you're at a stage where you understand most of it, or all of it, you can go through a thirty minute conversation without the game ever telling you.
I'd just like a consistent head's up at the start of a conversation at the least, there's other areas in the game that always tell you what a person is speaking and how their voice sounds, I don't see why there shouldn't be an ability to have some way to tell here too.
If you're actively watching someone (by having used the watch <person> command so they appear in your "watching" list, AND it's not [CROWDED], you could get their speaking message.
After all, it's possible to "watch" even when it's not crowded. When it is crowded, getting the speaking message on every utterance of every person you're actively watching would be spammy, and one could also argue that this level of detail in a crowded situation is too much to expe ct.
People who you can hear in a crowded situation who are actively addressing you and not on your "watching" list wouldn't be included in this - they're making the effort to address you, you aren't making the effort to watch them.
We already have to make choices about who to watch in a big enough crowd. Now we're considering having the watching list provide an additional function, so I like how this version of this @idea lines up with management of one's limited perception capacity too.
Also, most importantly – Sometimes I don't want to reveal that I understand or speak a particular language, because my character has reasons for keeping that information secret. I've found myself becoming wary of engaging in RP with characters who I'm not sure are speaking a different language or not because their voice message didn't show up. I don't want to inadvertently ruin all the hard work I've put into keeping my knowledge of a foreign language on the down-low, just because the game didn't warn me that Joe Baka decided to talk to me in Euro or whatever.
except
every time somebody starts speaking to you for the first time in an RP scene, their voice message should pop up WITH language highlighted in color.
Keeping a character's voice disguised is a key part of disguise.
Using brevity or otherwise avoiding the 'speaking' trigger that fully displays the @voice message is a key part of keeping the voice disguised.
I think it is fair to ask players to default to English early in an interaction if they do not want to let on that they understand non-English languages.
That being said, I completely agree that if a character changes languages in the middle of a conversation, the next time that they speak after changing languages, there should be a 'speaking' message that includes the @voice and Language being spoken.
Given the coding challenges inherent in figuring out whether or not a character is changing languages in the middle of a conversation, or if they are starting a new conversation with a different character, I think the easiest way to handle it is to force a @voice message + Language notification every time a character switches languages.
I think you missed my point.
Staying disguised is all about reducing the number of tells or hints that you expose.
Being brief so as to not trigger an @voice / speaking message is a technique to reduce tells.
If @svetlana's suggestion was implemented as they made it, and the speaking message was triggered the first time anyone spoke, it would be impossible to avoid exposing the 'speaking message' tell.
Just speak English.
If you can understand another language and don't want to tip off other people, you can go ahead and not speak it until the @voice message randomly triggers.
(Speaking of triggered, yes. I am a bit.)
I feel like I'm constructively suggesting a way to make what you are asking for work, while at the same time not breaking other functionality.
Your response was more or less, "Change the way you RP."
Cheese is changing your @voice willy nilly.
I can't speak for other players who use Disguise, so take this with a grain of salt.
I have one @voice for each 'persona' that my character adopts when they dawn a disguise. A persona is the whole enchilada as detailed in 'help disguise'.
Expecting to be able to discern the specifics someone's voice, from someone else's voice, in a noisy urban environment, after a single utterance, is a huge stretch. Especially if that utterance is only a few syllables.
And the problem isn't "speaking English" or not. The problem is responding in English to a character's dialogue without realizing that they are speaking another language, and thus inadvertently revealing my comprehension of the foreign language.
You admitting that you're "Getting triggered" by this conversation doesn't add anything to the dialogue.
Since the other PC doesn't know they're speaking in a different language, they keep on responding. Considering the ranodmness of voice notification for @voice and language being spoken, it can alert someone hearing it within the first comment, the first few minutes, or has happened to me personally fifteen minutes into a conversation.
(Opinion) I believe that forcing the @voice / speaking message on every pose is a bad idea for the reasons stated above.
I don't appreciate @batko implying that I'm cheesing the system by working within the way the system works.
I don't appreciate @svetlana suggesting that people (not just me) should willy nilly change @voice around just because it is 'easy' to do. (Opinion) I believe that there should be some roleplay and preparation posed before changing @voice.
Hek, I don't appreciate you assuming that I -wouldn't- roleplay changing my @voice or faking an accent. If you don't want others hearing what your voice sounds like, then just don't speak in public when you're disguised.
It's not 'willy nilly' to change your @voice if you have the proper skill to do so. It's a tried and true method of disguise that I have seen countless people use for as long as I have played the game.
