It was also brought up that without them non-combatants would suffer to abusers.
What are your concerns around this potential change? What would make it better? Should we? Shouldn't we? Discuss.
It was also brought up that without them non-combatants would suffer to abusers.
What are your concerns around this potential change? What would make it better? Should we? Shouldn't we? Discuss.
https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/game-problems/meh-metachrosis-skin--388/
I would LOVE to have meaningful alternatives that are as cost effective as a poncho but while there are other things to disguise with they have large draw backs that do not even put them close to how good a poncho is.
Rather than nuking poncho's boost other disguise items perhaps?
In regards to non-coms and poncho's in the Mix a poncho is basically the only defense you have because if anyone enters into combat with you, you are done. So you have to prevent that, and while there are other options nothing out there fits the same need a poncho will fulfil.
I think that they've become the default tool for all characters in virtually every situation, regardless of their skills, is demonstration that they were really effective at patching this issue. However I think the problem with them is two-fold:
1. They're kind of silly. It's ridiculous that plurality (or even majority) of ambient and actual characters in the world are supposed to be wearing head to ground sheets that also cover their faces completely. How does anyone SEE?!
2. They limit the design space for all other disguise/stealth options because they're better than any other disguise object can be and all disguise (and stealth) items and mechanics have to work around the fact that ponchos are already so ubiquitous and powerful.
Removing ponchos with nothing in their wake would obviously cause problems because the game isn't really designed in a way to allow for pseudo-anonymity, but I think starting to plan for their removal and how other, better systems could replace them is a good idea.
There's a huge range of themely options for more cyberpunk disguise items like holographic chrome, scramble suits, and anti-facial recognition items, but also cutting ponchos out I think gives a lot more room for items that already exist like helmets and masks to become a bigger part of the day-to-day world while at the same time opening the design space for deep investment in disguise and stealth to become way better than it is now.
They also act to discourage the continuation of RP threads. I put on my wizard hat and robe, then shoot someone with my magic missiles and sneak away. The 11 witnesses saw a generic robe and unbranded wand. There's no follow-up. Congrats, you did a thing. You want cool rivals? You want to have an arch-nemesis? You want people to hate you for legitimate reasons other than smallworlding and assumptions? Take off the tarp and allow people to piece things together.
And for the love of god, don't perpetuate the nonsense that is "bwuh, you need tarps to do cwimes111!!!11" Literally just shoot person in face. Crime commit.
+ High disguise skill allows for @disguise-x verbs usage even without additional bonus tools.
+ Moderate disguise checks can toggle conceal a character's @name on busy streets akin to pseudo-sneak, very high checks conceals it everywhere.
+ Very high disguise checks allow permanent changes to @name that aren't subject to degradation.
+ Advanced disguise abilities along with chrome/tools could allow characters to completely remake themselves down to a biometric level.
+ Very advanced disguise and additional several additional advanced tools could allow for characters to make use of unidentifiable and disposable flash clones for super high risk plots.
I make these suggestions with the declaration or assumption that disguise stacking as it exists today doesn't work that way in future state. Sure, you can wear contacts under a hood, but no wearing a scrambler over a hood, for example.
Choices: Pros vs. Cons, fundamentals of game design. My suggestion here is that you should have to choose between in-person visible light obfuscation and digital obfuscation. One protects you from people in your area. One protects you from digital observation (in theory.)
What do I mean by digital observation? Binoculars, cameras- both the photographic and video kinds. Thermal optics in some cases. Drone optics. Possibly cybernetic eyes, if someone had two of them installed. Anything that isn't a jelly meatball in your head, basically.
Cryo cyberpunk things that should/could exist:
+ Facial scrambling sunglasses. Hide your display name on cameras and digital optical devices.
+ Larger-scale digital scrambling devices. Either a wearable jammer object similar to a backpack with emitters on it, and arms over the shoulders for added coverage. Optionally, clothing or armors that innately scramble digital optics but don't actually do anything to hide your face-to-face identity. Larger scale devices hide your display name AND your sdesc details.
+ Thermal camo. We have devices in-game to help regulate body body temperature. It would probably be pretty easy to hack or modify these things to work at an ambient temperature, instead of ideal body temperature.
+ Cold-blooded nanogenic: needs to be mutually exclusive with other, similar nanogenics (they both change the skin, so handwave reason why they don't work together.) Allows you increase your ability to sneak around thermal optics. Maybe it has the downside of reducing your physical stats, or something instead of simply bumping up your CPI.
+ Characters are by default 'disguised' on public streets, and don't show @name.
+ Helmets and masks of all kinds are made much more common and attractive to use, so they become the replacement to ponchos where everyone's face is almost always hidden in a themely way. Examples of features could be bonuses to wearing, face-concealing tint toggles, passive chemical/biological protection, additional features like thermographic displays or visual overlays.
+ Stealth is made way more important and useful. No feedback on coming out of stealth, stealth passively conceals @name for a certain period after ending, stealth can remain active even in combat like disguise, more stealth tools and tech to render characters all but invisible even for very complex scenarios.
+ Stealth and/or disguise can make characters blend passively into crowded-flagged spaces. This has the bonus of giving the watch/address system more practical purpose. Something like having someone with the right skills not showing up in a crowded room until they decide to address you, while they can still roleplay with other characters.
I maintain just deleting them completely would be highly beneficial to the game in the long run, in multiple regards.
I think the staff debuff can actually get you killed in a fight if you're too encumbered so that's also a factor. If you wear them you take on a lot of risk especially if you have armor on beneath it.
I agree removing the poncho introduces issues for identification but I believe those are actually beneficial growing pains that will result in the game getting to a better place eventually once players adapt to the differences and new tools can be brought in with the newly opened designed space (in the long run).
Advanced disguises still retain fatal tells, no matter how expertly and devotedly a player develops it, but a major complaint whenever disguise strength comes up is players not wanting it to have improvements because it would buff shrouds.
These items are too generic and effective and available, and they're limiting the design space of what could be a much more interesting set of skills and items.
Stat sheets still come into play there so results may vary but I think the system is good where it's at right now. If you have the time to tailor your disguise to a specific situation you will be better off than someone in a poncho especially if violence has to happen.
Ponchos are one of the core causes of dysfunction in conflicts now because they're zero effort, low skill investment, very cheap and work almost perfectly. That players can be metagamed through them is not highly relevant to their balancing because that is true of every disguise and even the perfect "disguises" of identity changes which have been historically pierced almost immediately (in one major plot case literally instantly). I agree there would be a brief drop in player willingness to do certain things if they were eliminated, but I think it would be brief and ultimately beneficial.
I also agree that metagaming is a strong factor that is not going to be easy, or even possible, to full eliminate, but I don't think it follows at all that ponchos are therefore a necessity. Rather I think players have gotten comfortable with them, they've gotten lazy. They'd prefer not to have to do more than briefly debate between a minor stat penalty and a helmet, but at some level the eternal cries against No-RP Shroudkill Murderhoboing is caused by these items rather than actual player behaviour.
The disguise skill needs some love for sure, but I don't know that essentially making it mandatory to dabble in mischief and murder will be beneficial to the game. I don't know that forcing people to take the time to carefully construct a disguise and change their clothes just to walk from A to B would be either.
As a last note, No-RP Shroudkill Murderhoboing is a cultural issue and a matter of people- again- fearing identification, or being dogpiled by the victim's friends. I do agree that this style of PvP is a problem but I don't think ponchos are the root of all that is wrong with Sindome's murders.
Getting rid of shrouds would be a strange decision when it's already so easy to figure out which one of two people who use a specific weapon are the ones who just killed Sally Snakefan.
'Murderhoboing' is a different argument and you don't need shrouds in the game to have those claims. Anytime someone doesn't understand why they died there's a chance they'll say they were murderhobo'd, shroud or not.
Is there a limit to what you can fit under a poncho? Such as can you be in full Xo5 armor and still be underneath a poncho?
If there is no limit to what can fit under a poncho, how would it affect the shroud lifestyle if you couldn't fit it over anything thicker than say, Du-Wear?
How would the necessity to forsake armor for the sake of disguise change things?
Like I feel like this discussion is difficult because ponchos are disguise to most players, who largely have no idea what's out there otherwise.
There are situations where it is better to not wear a poncho and there are situations where it is better to wear one. I wish I could give examples but that's also something that should be figured out ingame.
Regarding ponchos however, I'm very open to removing ponchos from the game. Yes, hoods masks and similar might take more effort to use effectively but I think that's a GOOD thing. You would then have to decide if it's worth the time and effort to go for your A+ disguise or if it's not worth it and go without or with one that isn't going to be as effective.
I think it might also encourage greater investment in disguise. Both in the skill and system and the RP of it. If it sounds like this would all make that level of anonymity harder, more costly and take more character investment - I think that's a good thing.
Argue for the overpowered aspects of ponchos all you want but at the end of the day they're a godsend for QOL and time-saving purposes on top of the other reasons I highlighted in my first post. We don't all want an A+ disguise, those who do have the tools to achieve and utilize that already.
Again; give the disguise skill more practical use, buff it, what ever. What I'm against is removing ponchos from the game entirely.
It already works exactly like this.
Disguises & appearance changes & ambient populations are not cloaks of invisibility or get out of jail free cards. They are each tools in an arsenal used when attempting to obscure your identity. They are useful for planting a seed of doubt about who you are or giving a measure of plausible deniability for your actions. To be useful you must convince the other person you are not who you say you are.
Other characters are under no obligation to believe your character is someone different than who they assume they are.
Characters have disguises, stealth, appearance, @describe, @holdback, @voice, clothing, weapons, pose, and emote that can all be used together to craft a 'different' appearance. If a PC notices your PC they can assume you are whoever they want to assume you are. They do not need to justify it. You need to use the tools to make it hard to guess. Again, that's assuming that you are noticed at all and not lost in the crowd.
Just like you, the player can CHOOSE to have your character eat when it is not REQUIRED, your character can CHOOSE to not recognize someone if you the player think you know who it is, but you think it makes sense for your character not to recognize them. This is great for roleplay, and we encourage it. However, staff will not be the roleplay police on this. You have the tools at your disposal to completely obfuscate your identity. Use them.
Too much time goes into the GMs arbitrating if someone 'would really know it was person X' and in the end, the decision is still entirely subjective. If you truly want to convince someone you are not who you say you are, you have to be thorough and plant the seeds of doubts through role play, actions, inactions, and in any number of other ways both codedly possible and those that are role play specific.
Again, if a player chooses to ignore these and make assumptions about who your character is, through a
disguise, a disguised name, an appearance change, their voice, their description, their nakeds, their clothing, their attitude, the slang they use, the actions they take, the actions they fail to take, or anything else, that it fair game.
This approach means that the onus is on players to attempt to deceive others in game and out and it does not require a GM to arbitrate if someone should have been able to 'guess' who you were. This results in fewer situations where people felt that they were treated unfairly by another player or didn't like the result of a GM investigation, where a GM was unable to give them the full view of what happened because it would reveal IC information.
The responsibility is on the players to hide their identity successfully.
Players have gotten comfortable with them now because it's easy and they don't want things to change too much, but I maintain this is a indication of a problem of settling into a comfortable rut that might have higher gameplay highs that were possible eventually if the game was pushed out of it.
It's perfectly okay, imo, for some parts of the game to not require several items, several skills or several people to be accessible. Yes, ponchos are easy, and they therefore make it less of an absolute headache to DO things in the game- like drive conflict, like PvP, which so many players have noted or complained about there being a lack of as is.
Not everything in the game has to be difficult or require several steps to see through. Nor should it.
A) Throw on poncho, rush over to engage.
B) Take 10-15 minutes to dig your other outfit and disguise items out of something, slap them all on, ready a disguise and THEN head out hoping that person hasn't already left.
Nobody is arguing against the fact that the Disguise skill is underused, but frankly I don't think combat/PvP is where it is meant to shine in the first place and the solution is making it more applicable in other scenarios rather than REMOVING the only item that grants any level of anonymity. Disguise should be about social and political subterfuge if anything, for shady deals and espionage and pulling data from people. Trying to turn it into a necessity for PvP would likely do more harm than good.
I'd see players feeling like it's poncho or might as well nothing as a problem for the ponchos rather than the rest of it being the culprit. I'd just as soon see some other disguise options come in that work in different ways (for example disguises that don't degrade but have other limitations) to benefit different scenarios, but none of that is really possible with how disguise is built at the moment which boils down to 'poncho is on/off, poncho strength is X'.
I don't think ponchos have to be the only choice, and I feel like without them the game's possibilities open up more so players will consider things they won't now because they don't have to.
Because players will enough disguise investment use disguises differently, and the amount of UE required for a poncho to stay up for a useful amount of time is pretty negligible over the span of 21 ranks of the skill and their associated substats.
If staff are willing to explore and implement new possibilities then yeah, sure, retiring ponchos would be a subject to revisit once those tools are at players' disposal.
Until then? I maintain that removing them would be see a lot less PvP and a lot more sitting in the safety of one's apartment.
While the seasoned Sindome veteran may be bored with the poncho, it is something that works both ways. It is an equalizer for the downtrodden player who isn't a combat character but wants to evade those who are. That's my take, as someone who engages in zero combat and makes use of them and other disguise items.
You could as easily say everyone should be able to make stealth checks easily because it would penalize pure solos too much, but that's the point.
On the other side of the equation, if one weapon existed in the game which was more powerful and easier to use than all the others - would that be tolerable?
I can promise you there are already plenty of things in place to risk being identified, poncho or no, both in terms of game mechanics, circumstances and whether or not people choose to smallworld. The poncho is the only defense against that, really.
Murder is already difficult in Sindome due to various factors that I will not list, and those factors can often make it, honestly, undesirable to engage in because the effort tends to vastly outweigh the payout/risk. You do it to drive conflict, and push plot where and when you can. If you choose to play a PC that likes to operate in secrecy and be a wolf in sheep's clothing you should have every opportunity to keep up that facade for as long as you can- because one way or another you will get discovered eventually.
Yeah, getting killed by a shroud with zero RP before or after absolutely sucks and I firmly believe in there always being something RP-related to give to the victim after the fact, but I don't think strong-arming a change like this is going to encourage better RP standards on players that simply don't want to bother.
The removal of the poncho would disproportionately negatively affect those characters who are still at the beginner to intermediate level and not those who have more resources and UE.
Maybe to Necronex's point, the cost of actions and consequences is just too high, but that's a much bigger issue than just ponchos.
I think at the end of the day, the low effort involved in using a poncho hurts the game more than it helps, but I'm happy to be the outlier in this train of thoughts. The disguise system is one of the more developed aspects of Sindome, and I think it could benefit from rewarding, and encouraging exploration vs a one-size-fits-all poncho.
I mean when you look at cyberpunk media, you never really see solos throw on ponchos to do their hits.
I personally feel that disguise should -not- be anonyomity, but it should be used to do things like pretend to be other people, pretend to be a rival faction member, pretend to be a junior corpie. Not maintain a faceless, unidentifiable mass.
It's reasonable to ask what would come in place if something was taken out. I often take it for granted that past discussions aren't sometimes distant and forgotten about. When I say ponchos limit the design space for disguise, and that being the essential problem their removal could address, what I'm really talking about is that how disguise works at all in terms of disguise durability and degradation through actions and revealing faces, is basically all derived from and balanced on hoodies and ponchos and similar hooded clothes. Even if you're wearing something, or encased in something, that couldn't possibly reveal your character's face through moving around all herky-jerky, that's still how they work because all disguises are essentially different flavours of poncho; the assumed default.
This absolutely need not be the case. This skill needn't function like some kind of consumable buff applied at varying durations with a failure always a floppy hood come away, there is a universe of other mechanics available once hooded clothing is no longer the rule.
For example, and these should not be assumed to be what I'm suggesting must replace them, and I'm riffing on ideas of balance off the top of my head so give me some rope here, but for example if I was to do away with ponchos (and hoodies if I could) how I would personally wish to see develop go is have disguises broken into several groups, say hypothetically Appearance Mods (simple makeup, simple hair styling, appear, cosmetic wigs, cosmetic contacts), Concealment (masks, helmets, full body armor, mechanized suits), and True Disguises (specialty wigs, specialty contacts, advanced makeup application, advanced hair styling, transformative nanos and biomods, cosmetic surgery).
I would see Appearance Mods as essentially taking the place of ponchos on the bottom end of the scale for common use, these I would say could retain the current mechanisms of the disguise skill in terms of application strength and wear and degradation (though I would see Artistry now give an equal weight as Disguise itself for them), but be made overall much more lasting through casual use (movement, communication, simple actions) but always fail quickly under advanced use (combat, grappling, advanced movement).
For Concealment I would see helmets and other types of body armor and full body suits/mechs no longer being available for meeting the requirements of advanced disguise techniques, but also not revealing faces through typical use. Not ever. You're not going to move around too much and show your face in your Xo5, that shit is vacuum sealed on and doesn't open, never mind the power armor. Instead I would see helmets and similar, in exchange for essentially unlimited typical disguise endurance, have other drawbacks such as no functioning whatsoever with appear, no stacking functions with any other disguise items, and made so that sufficiently critical attacks and damage against them trigger the @see-thru flag on the damaged item until repaired. Because they would still be much stronger overall as concealment tools in this design, I would see them take on a vastly greater stat penalty for making and defending attacks; I think it should be a common choice for characters to decide between blocking head shots and making their best possible attack rolls and the current penalties on helmets don't achieve that.
For True Disguises this is where I would see the design space really come alive with potential for characters to be really creative and committed in a way that isn't possible now. I would see all true disguise items require a decently high skill to begin to apply properly (say at the curve) but starting there have no wear on casual use (movement, communication, simple actions) and on degrade against advanced use, then as breakpoints in skill and stats are met also have no wear through advanced use (combat, grappling, advanced movement, although still coming off from direct strong attacks to the head akin to helmets above or skillsofts), and then finally and eventually at the maximum theoretical grade of investment and the most advanced tools never break, ever, under any circumstances or reveal anything about whatever the original character was; this akin to getting a new identity through staff plots but done by the player themselves.
Now again, these are just examples about how the design space could be opened up, please don't jump in with 'well if you think ponchos are strong think about infinite helmet'. I don't have a problem with strong disguise options, I just want them to all have interesting mechanics of their own, there not be one default do-it-all choice, and there be a strong advantage to deep specialization of the skill and better support for creative use of disguises in long term situations.
The penalties don't matter to most people because most people aren't combatants. I see people with no or hobbyist combat ability using ponchos far more than the supersolos everyone complains about when ponchos are discussed. Maybe something that penalizes noncombatants using ponchos needs to be looked at to reduce poncho usage overall, not just more beatings for the combat players.
However I think even that is a temporary overcorrection based around the perception of the penalty being more relevant than it actually is, because even expert players sometimes overvalue the extreme top curve of stats, and the functionality of ponchos will eventually win out and they'll return to being ubiquitous as they ever were.
I think, bottom line, super solos should not be walking around in fucking bedsheets for any reason or to any gameplay purpose. It's completely ridiculous and aesthetically disastrous as a rule of cool concept. The top end combatants should be characters slugging it out in super cool battle armour and mechanized suits and cybernina gear, always, no exceptions. Work backwards from that end goal if we have to, is my view on it.
Without a doubt, it would make identity concealment harder. It would become something that a character would have to learn and specialize in to a larger degree than ponchos necessitate. And I don't just mean in terms of skill and stats. I also realize that this would force some characters/players who decide they don't want to put the work in necessary to more effectively conceal their identity to accept the greater risk of character exposure. I think both are fine.
I have played a disguise oriented character before who never used ponchos before. They used hoodies and masks. Collected a variety of common clothing items. Used appear extensively. You can even create in game macros for this that include poses to RP out putting on your identity concealing disguise. It's very doable. Yes, more work than throwing on a poncho but I've personally had great success withou tponchos in the past..
And maybe there would be a phase where some characters who relied on a poncho to not get dogpiled get dogpiled. But I honestly think that the community and staff will see this and correct in a positive way. Players might be forced to focus more on cultivating an enemy than getting those cheap and easy wins that often remove the fun of having an enemy. I am certain the community and staff would encourage this as it's been a core concept of the game for a very long time and isn't new: Cooperative Competition.
Finally, it's my opinion that players who have invested in disguise should be offered a free respec should something as major as removing the poncho from the game should occur. So they can make minor adjustments to their character to better cope with the change in a way that isn't just a full on negative hit to the player's enjoyment of the game.
Disguises which are specific to a job take a lot of time to apply if your character isn't some anti-social creature who basically lives in immy clothing and never wears armor. Nymphali has already mentioned similar though, I'm only repeating what they said in this post.
There is also the factor of having to switch disguises rapidly which is something a poncho might allow for that another highly specific disguise would not. Leave the latter for situations where it's possible and beneficial to do so and the former for situations that exemplify how fast things can happen on Sindome. I would liken the arguments for the removal of the poncho to the questions sometimes asked about why people don't write ten lines of emotes before they attack someone.
It's about your character who usually wears fancy tailored clothing or armored being called out to work because their target who they haven't seen outside in two weeks is taking a leisurely stroll down the street and they don't have the time to do anything but just throw a poncho on if they want to act in that moment.
This presumes that the only options are to have a quick and easy poncho-level identity concealing disguise or not participating. In my opinion those are just the two easiest options given a player's play style, investment level, IC situation and/or character build.
To me the above sounds more like, "This is how I like to play best." Or, "This is how I was taught and what has proven optimal for me." These are very valid things but they don't equate to, "This is the only way someone can do this." Not in my opinion. There are other ways. I've seen it done and done it myself though others tend to do it better than me.
Years and years ago, I played a fairly well known ganger who went on to do some solo work. They never used disguises and still had to respond to a target popping and rushing over. As a player I even enjoyed letting my character's identity leak. I do admit that this was with a well developed character with few to fear but there were plenty more efficient and skilled operators, including Necronex666 if my memory serves.
I've also seen several other characters do solo work and commit crimes without ponchos or even disguises. They became legends of their time. There is more than one way to do a thing. It's not, in my opinion, "If I don't have ponchos, I can't do this job/role."
Disguises which are specific to a job take a lot of time to apply if your character isn't some anti-social creature who basically lives in immy clothing and never wears armor.
You have developed your methods of surviving and succeeding in this game. Others have developed theirs. I strongly believe that you have worked out very successful blueprints for the kind of characters you like to play. But that doesn't invalidate other approaches or character concepts.
One could just as easily call characters that wear fancy clothes and refuse to engage in anything risky without a poncho as a pretentious and cowardly creature that only cares about low risk victories.
I personally think there's room for both kinds of characters and more besides.
There is also the factor of having to switch disguises rapidly which is something a poncho might allow for that another highly specific disguise would not. Leave the latter for situations where it's possible and beneficial to do so and the former for situations that exemplify how fast things can happen on Sindome. I would liken the arguments for the removal of the poncho to the questions sometimes asked about why people don't write ten lines of emotes before they attack someone.
Yes. You couldn't use the exact same strategies and approaches as before. They would have to be adjusted to fit the new environment. The game would change. And I think that's the point. And I think all the above and other similar objections are all very valid points to consider. I don't, however, think they are blockers that will severely hinder conflict. I think they will change the shape of conflict and how one navigates it.
1) The lowbie with nothing who can do whatever they want because people might give them a pass
2) The midbie who has gear they want to hold onto and is at serious risk of losing it all and being unable to perform at peak capability
3) The oldbie who has enough UE/resources/allies to bounce back and get right back on the horse again after a fall
There's some crossover between 2 and 3 but I'm writing very generally right now.
You mentioned you played a ganger and I'm not going to assume what your specific situation was but gangers have the potential to make a lot of chy very quickly and that means a lot when it comes to what you can do and what you can recover from. While you're in a gang if you're a blood or above you're also under the protection of the faction if things become too much for you to handle. We've seen the result of this several times.
Consider the characters who are just trying to get by and not in a faction. There are often complaints that there isn't enough PvP and that nobody is willing to take risks but it's items like the poncho that allow for entry level risk taking with the possibility of not ending up on the wanted list of everybody who might end up pissed off at you. Higher investment in disguise that allows you to do stuff like @disguise-name comes later and that should not be the standard because then it takes longer to be able to utilize the skill.
An oldbie can weather this change fine because as mentioned by batko a lot of them are already choosing to not use the poncho during fights anymore because of the increased hit to your stats due to Slither's recent update. Another character who relies on it to avoid being targeted by those oldbies is going to have a much bigger problem.
It's not that you should never give anyone the opportunity to figure out who you are, I do this all the time. It's that the risk needs to be calculated unless you want to end up in a recovery period that can last weeks or months. And that's if you're fortunate enough to not be hit by several different parties in a row or GMs forbid, the same party multiple times.