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Appearance vs Charisma
I'm prettier on the inside

Due to the exciting Charisma topic, a good point was brought up. Charisma and Appearance -should- simply be separate stats. You can be as butt ugly as the underside of a dead walrus but damn do you have a smooth and convincing voice. You're hot as hell but cold as a frozen mammoth. I'll just look from afar, ice princess.
They are.
i think she means they should be something we can both see and modify ourselves rather than randomly assigned to one or the other when you bump the CHA stat
Something you can actually see and deal with. I can raise my charisma stat but cannot choose for it to not go into appearance.
Since I'm whining the loudest in the other thread, I should probably post here too, I 100% obviously agree. Throwing my weight behind this, which is considerable, because I have low CHA IRL. :P

also agree about separating appearance but it also doesn't bother me if everyone makes their characters hot because i think pretty with no character is boooringggg so it doesn't even feel like cheating to me im just like "hmm i dont want to get to know you"

Thank you, no. Appearance already exists as a sub-attribute of Charisma, and that's worked fine for as long as I've been here. Separating them would also do a great deal of harm to characters who have invested heavily into Charisma so as to be both good-looking *and* sociable, so unless they're being grandfathered and given equivalent attributes after the split, they're screwed.

That's setting aside the fact that most all of the attributes have sub-attributes. How many need to be split off into primary attributes before we cover every potential "abuse" of the system?

Huh it's almost as if substats should be visible and tweakable by players which is a thing I've been advocating since the beginning of time????
Also like

what amika said


Classically considered to be crappy justification to use 'But we've always done it that way'.

Like I said in the other thread, something is missing from the substat system.

Individually tweakable might not be the only solution, but it does seem as if something needs to change.

If you want people to be able to be able to modify their substats then you'ld have to be prepared for people with perfect cookie cutter combat builds with no variation between their stats to make them unique from one another.

That sounds like a TON of fun, doesn't it?


Okay. Granting you that, what do you propose should be done for people who've been playing by the rules in their Charisma investments? When you split the attributes, are you going to give them free equivalent Appearance and Charisma attributes as compensation?

How far does it go before this is complete? How many sub-attributes will have to be made into primary attributes in order to avoid abuse?

Neither question was addressed in your insult.

I'll also add that the staff is not comprised of dull idiots. They do watch for these things and react accordingly when there's a problem, particularly when they first review characters for approval.

The only thing I am going to comment on here: I too would like to see substats be tweakable, Maybe have an option in the assign ue menu for stats focus. Charisma: focus toward Charm or appearance. Then when you assign UE to that stat, it does a roll more in favor of one substat than the other, not being perfectly tweakable, but leaning more toward one than the other.

Same with all of the stats, not just charisma.

@Cerberus Maybe some kind of middle ground exists, like an IC way to temporarily lock in gains to a specific substat when spending UE.

As an example of the top of my head, getting cosmetic surgery could trigger it for a certain number of UE spent, causing CHA UE to go into the appearance substat exclusively for X UE or X days, whichever comes first.

Also, being able to set some manner of propensity towards specific substats during chargen could be an option, without it meaning exclusive gains.

Finally, if full control over skills isn't a problem, why is full control over stats?

"If you want people to be able to be able to modify their substats then you'ld have to be prepared for people with perfect cookie cutter combat builds with no variation between their stats to make them unique from one another.

That sounds like a TON of fun, doesn't it?"

If the idea behind Sindome's game system is that it shouldn't be possible to assign your stats to make highly efficient combat builds, then the entire system of stats driving it should be changed.

I'm not vouching for crazy overhauls of substats as a whole, or making any arguments about that needing to be done in other cases. If someone wants to, it's probably appropriate for a different thread. Our scope here is literally related to one stat and sub-stat. It's just literally incorrect to make Appearance a sub stat of CHA. CHA is comprised of so many factors. The argument being put forth is that it is problematic to tie appearance into CHA as a rule. It gets hazy in relation to RP, and CHA always will because it's not easy to handle concretely the way combat stats are. But the simple tying in of short_desc being affected makes it concretely confusing.

I'd even be pretty much happy to unlink CHA and short_desc, leave CHA/Appearance where they are and let people sort it out subjectively / via RP. But people should be allowed to create / grow / RP characters that are gorgeous but cold, and vice versa. Saying it'd be awkward or hard to deal with existing characters' investment in CHA and so forget about it isn't a good argument, it's an expression of laziness.

Seems to be working fine as far as I can see.
@rules Trancer: Don't be a dick OOCly
I like most of Swashbuckler's idea but, Charisma and Perception are the only two main stats that should receive any sort of tweakability or split. And, perception is only because outlook doesn't fit. Can I be extremely perceptive and hate life? Yes. I don't know why perception would affect outlook. All other sub stats fit their stats correctly.

Charisma (CHR)

a persons general appearance and like-ability.

Appearance (APR) is a look, be it low like a street

urchin or high like a CEO of a corp.

Charm (CHM) defines how a character gets along with


You can appear good looking with terrible charm or vice versa.

You can be extremely aware and have the worst possible outlook.

The substats themselves fight with each other. Since we don't know what the substats actually are valued at, half of us could definitely be playing incorrectly based on stats because hey, we don't even know.


I agree with you. Splitting them I just realized makes no sense whatsoever.

But taking a page from Fallout SPECIAL system (which this seems to do) in the old Fallout Charisma was not just how good you looked but how convincing you were (Albert Cole)

My bit:

Low Charisma doesn't necessarily mean you are ugly (though it might show as ugly). It can mean that you just don't know how to take care of yourself, dress in bad combination of clothing (tangerine top with fuschia pants), hair is messy, you smell bad because you don't shower everyday (or twice a day as some people need to due to jobs, heat, etc.), are regularly covered in some sort of grime, or, look good but are shy or come off as rude / short without meaning too. (It sounded fine in their head but when said outloud, came out sounding completely different.) it could be hormonal (your body's musky scent is more acidic than other people's). Just a thought.

I think Issac made a good quote I think on Charisma (About how convincing you are). Someone can be an asshole but know the right things to say or the right tone to say them in. Doesn't make them less cold, just, better able to sell ice to Eskimos.


I can be wrong since I am still learning things about the game, but I don't think Perception's 'Outlook' is if you like life or hate life (that's more an RP point) but more literally "see"? As in, how much you see / how far you can see (It does mention 'measure'). Awareness would be something like, noticing a spider on the wall or a smell coming from something or someone. But Outlook could be (could) how much you see overall. That's how I've taken it at least because Liking or Hating people and / or life is more a personal RP point. :)

Perception (PCP)

the relative measure of a persons general awareness

Awareness (AWR) is a measure of a person's ability

to notice things.

Outlook (OUT) is a measure of how a person sees

the world