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The Mix is too rich
The rent is too damn low

I WARN YOU NOW: THIS POST IS NOT FOR DISCUSSING CURRENT OR PROPOSED MONEY MAKING METHODS. DO NOT SHARE ANYTHING THAT COULD BE CONSTRUED AS SUCH BEYOND BROAD BLANKET STATEMENTS

Hello I think there are too many automated hustle options that allow Mixers to make obnoxious amounts of money very quickly. I do not think capable Mixers should be broke, but I do think that certain aspects of the automated economy are generating so much money that it disincentivizes pvp and dirty deals with the corpies who are supposed to have all the money.

This has always been and I suspect will always be an issue to some degree. While playing a corpie in the past I've run into issues with Mixers not really wanting to do take any risks for money because they were already rich. I don't mean big shots, I mean like, pizza delivery people and strippers.

I think there should be much sharper restrictions on certain forms of automated income (in particular those that allow you to go above the automated income cap), especially for characters who have coded jobs. It's currently possible to make more than a senior manager in the Mix without ever talking to a player character and that's absolutely buck wild to me.

As a Mixer, why would I bother trying to hustle other PCs out of their flash if I can make as much as a top level corpie just messing with automated systems? That's way more trouble than it's worth. And if one of those corpies dangled a shiny in front of my face in the hopes I'd rat someone out or something, why take the risk? I can just putter around doing a more complicated version of running crates and make more money than God.

I think all forms of automated income should be scaled back somewhat to encourage Mixers to fight each other more. I'm aware that staff intervenes when they deem it appropriate to take from the mix-rich or people who are exploiting systems, but still.

REPEAT DISCLAIMER FOR THOSE WITH SHORT MEMORIES: DO NOT DISCUSS THESE SYSTEMS OR HOW TO ACCESS THEM OR OTHER IC INFO PLEASE

What if the auto-income cap scales to your apparent wealth each week?

Say you have at least 50k sitting around (bank, chy in apartment, etc., whatever means is reasonable.) then you take a 20% hit to what you can earn weekly.

100k? 40%

150k? 60%

200k? 80%

250k? 100%

These are just spitballing numbers; come up with your own. But it would make sense in an NPC going like, "Hey, you're rich, get lost. I want someone more desperate to get my chy so I stay on top."

No it just needs to be reduced across the board for all players and probably moreso for those with coded jobs. Your suggestion would lead to people getting up to a comfortable level of wealth and parking there.

The Mix shouldn't be Deathmatch 2104 but it also shouldn't be The Busy World of Richard Scarry. People need to at least slightly feel the pinch unless they're in certain major roles or they're just going to take zero-risk NPC work and moosex all day.

I remember a time when we were all poor pieces of garbage who would absolutely sell each other out for 20k and "don't trust anyone " we're absolutely words to live by So I don't think this is an always was and always will be thing.

I agree when I came back to Sindome it was actually really easy to get back in ballin status and I am not entirely sure that is because of game knowledge or the economy, or a combination of both, but yes you absolutely can make more then a Corpie if you are in the know. I have nothing to offer in terms of solutions to that perceived problem, because everyone will get super mad at it, aside from recanting days of old though.

The mix shouldn't be a place where living is "meh, this is fine", and I could never get behind characters that from an IC perspective thought they were living more luxurious in the mix as opposed to a Corpie because of the vast differences in quality of life and environment, but it's also hard to pass judgement when them trash pandas really are living better in many cases (Fade to mix apartment decorated to look like something you would wanna live in IRL with their briefcases of money stacked on the couch and chefs island cooking a nice steak)

Just my opinion. Feel free to ignore, I just see where Vera is coming from.

A number of good points here. The, chyen influx, lets call it, has a scale that has been set higher in some times and lower in others. The nice thing about a scale is we can slide it.

These points have started a discussion among the GMs, so stay tuned for possible changes.

Good to hear. Like Grizzly I'm a player who will pursue conflict even if it's mechanically disincentivized but I think everyone would benefit if Mixers had some of our shinies taken away.
I understand the "problem" but I do not agree with the solution.

I would like to see Gold be more of a free for all where Mixers can struggle to come up in the world. Through that struggle, they can burn through their chy and the gear they purchase with it.

As it is, Gold is perceived as off limits. It has the illusion of being a place where you only do crime if you're REALLY GOOD at it. Otherwise it is going to be an instant fail / futile attempt.

Am I going to speak a bit out of turn here because I was not around "before" there were corporate characters. The sense I have is that while the game was expanded to allow for corporate PCs, the underlying systems weren't carefully examined. What "worked" in the past when EVERYONE was in the Mix probably isn't a good model now that there are characters spread more evenly through the sectors.

There seems to be the sense that once corporate characters make it to Gold, they are some how insulated from the Mix. The way that the WJF and corporate security operate further reinforces that. Mixers simply cannot linger on Gold for any period of time without having a legion of bored corporate / security characters coming down on them.

As Vera alluded to, Conflict Consumes Chyen. From my perspective, Gold needs more conflict. I am not familiar enough with the game to recommend the best ways to foster that conflict. All I can note is a near total absence of it. When it happens, they are one off events. A bombing here. An attack there.

There is no Persistence. Gold needs a persistent, or at least semi-persistent Mixer presence. I challenge for staff is finding the balance where security forces don't just squash it out of hand, and where Mixers don't just spread like the plague.

The end goal (in my opinion) is to create persistent conflict that is supported by the theme. Mixers on Gold reminding the corporations that there are a lot of angry, desperate people around. Corporate security holding the line to make sure that wage slaves can make it work and back without a detour through the vats.

At the same time, it needs to be symbiotic. Corporates profiting off of the economic differences between topside and the Mix. Mixers profiting off of corporates wanting what Mixers have access to. And in support of that, some sort of loosening of the social stigma of corporates dealing with Mixers. Maybe it's okay to do occasional business, but not hang out in bars and clubs, or invite them back to corporate apartments.

I realize that this post has been all over the place. This is a complex subject and there is a lot of room for improvement here. I believe that all the systems are in place and that the world has been built in a thoughtful way. I think that as a community we need to make some adjustments to the "this is how things have always been / have to be" mentality. Those adjustments need to be considered with the ultimate goal of increasing conflict, but doing so in a way that the conflict is sustainable and not simply one side smashing on the other side when they step out of line. In my mind, that conflict needs to happen Gold. Mixers causing problems on Green? Dead Mixers. Corpies strolling around Red? Dead / Maimed Corpies. Mixers and Corpies making a mess of Gold? Excellent (said in my best Mr Burns voice)

@Vera, could you please clarify what you mean by "fight each other more"? Does that mean to encourage more violence or is it more general, "create conflict" as a way of incentivizing alternative ways to make chyen?
I would love to see Gold become more of a vibrant, cosmopolitan melange — there are two too many sectors already it feels like, there doesn't need to be three mostly unpopulated corporate sectors as it is.

I encourage you to make an ideas post about it Hek.

The purpose if this thread is to discuss the amount of money Mixers are able to make on automated systems and whether it's too much or not. If you want to talk about how safe you think Gold is (it absolutely is not safe) you should start a new thread.
@DoveCage - Sindome is a PVP game. For the most part, all the stories in the game come from players competing with each other. That doesn't have to mean my character punching yours in the face and taking their wallet, but at its core, that's the entire game and everything else exists in service to that.

If I make so much money that I have everything I want just messing with automated systems, why should I go punch you in the face? Why should I gather data on you and sell it to people? Why should I try to rob your corporation, why should I rat you out to the Jakes?

If you see a Mixer wearing nice clothes or riding a motorcycle that isn't a cheap piece of shit, that should clue you into the fact that they are a very dangerous person who has made some hard compromises, not someone who earned some automated income for a couple of weeks.

As a GM I think that this was a well needed call out. We keep telling corpies that they have access to flash that they can use to pay mixers to do things and, in the process, look like rich Mr. Johnsons. But if mixers are so well off that they don't feel like they have to seriously consider proffered jobs, then there is a problem.

When most mixers are offered a 20k job, they should have a very hard time turning it down. Very hard. It should tempt them to look past their morals, their friendships, their humanity. Just a little at least.

Part of this is RPing your mixer as if they live in a shitty place and are always hungry for a payday. You have to RP it people. Truly imagine living in the slums and turn that up a notch. Part of it is mechanical. I honestly can't expect a mixer with 300k in the bank to act like they are desperate for flash.

Also, given the account balance scale one of you provided, this is a huge issue. If we have players thinking that that scale should apply to mixers then things have gone off the rails in my opinion. Even if we put the concern of earnings aside, I have to ask why our mixers are not spending. Seriously. Why in the hell are you all not spending your flash to do cool things? Stop hoarding!!!

I'll sum this up by saying that we have identified a couple of areas were we feel adjustments can be made and that we will be digging into this further in the near future. Have fun RPing!

@Vera, thanks. I actually wasn't arguing with your points at all, but was rather looking to understand the general concept you were going for. I am already aware that Sindome is a PVP game, but have had some concerns in the past that "break their face in" is not the answer to everything, which is what I was trying to clarify. Thanks for the response.

All I will say is that I agree with these sentiments. I can't really explain why I do, without revealing IC information. I'm interested to see where staff goes with it.

I can't see bank accounts but I wholeheartedly agree, 'cause from a bug's eye view I can tell that some people are sitting on ungodly sums they probably didn't @note and putting a damper on income isn't a total fix.
When most mixers are offered a 20k job, they should have a very hard time turning it down. Very hard. It should tempt them to look past their morals, their friendships, their humanity. Just a little at least.

Mobius put what I was thinking into better words.

The problem people have is that many are not natural assholes. Many people want to go topside and keep their mixer pals, bang their mixer girlfriend, and all that, and that's fine if that's what you want to do, but service mixers rooming with each other or corporates on Green, for example, with nobody batting an eye. What's the point of being corporate if you can just be a service mixer and flow freely from green to red with the playerbase on both sides shrugging you off because you are not corporate nor real mixer in some eyes so you have more access to everything and these automated systems.

In my opinion service mixers should be really feeling the heat. Why should a mixer not tax that Baka with the company goddam AV/ car that they can take anywhere anytime more chyen then a mixer? Why should a corporate person show them anymore human decency then a common mixer? I think theme and misunderstanding of such ( maybe that is a strong word for it) also plays a part in the off-balance state of things.

Cerberus was very vocal about doing this and it seems to have completely fallen by the wayside in his absence.

I don't think we need to be taking any lessons from Cerberus, on any of his views.

If I work hard for months towards earning and developing, I don't need someone to arbitrarily, omnipotently and omnisciently decide I'm not enduring enough hardship and just make my life harder because some players are determined to treat Sindome like post-apocalyptic survival horror with disposable characters.

I should clarify 'cause I realize that anyone who wasn't subjected to lawn trimming might not know what it means -

People with huge hoards of loot are going to continue being rich even if you cut off their revenue because they have no incentive to take risks. They may be accumulating wealth more slowly, but that doesn't really matter because they've already crossed the event horizon of Mix Rich. If this isn't a character who's going balls to the wall or generating RP for others it turns them into a black hole for RP - no incentive to take risks since they have nowhere to go but down. Even very good players are going to be hindered by the temptation to hoard.

Barring the people who are supposed to be big shots, every single Mix Rich character negatively impacts everyone around them by putting a damper on theme and incentivizing passivity.

I could take it a step farther and suggest that this also fosters the wrong kind of conflict. Instead of fighting over scraps people wind up fighting over girlfriends or whatever and stuff just gets weird.

+1 to toning down all the automated income. Not only is it way too easy to get rich off it, but I'm seeing a disproportionate amount of RP these days revolving around the automated systems and not more interesting stuff.
And if your months of hard work earning and developing came from farming automated systems, it did no good for anyone and is ultimately meaningless. If you're a Mixer, you should be living hand to mouth unless you are busting your ass with competitive PVP and even then you should only really have as much as you need to keep that RP going.
Vera -- you're playing one facet of Sindome, but just about all of your posts involve trying to make what you want, what you enjoy, the circumstances for everyone. Dictating what people ought to want.

If you enjoy daily PvP, in the form of ganger gameplay, or CorpSec, or whatever else, that's perfectly fine, but it's one small part, often a very small part from an RP-hours standpoint of the larger Sindome social structure.

This isn't Call of Duty, and if you feel like your gameplay isn't challenging enough, feel free to take on more enemies, spend more recklessly, play to lose ad infinitum, no one is going to interfere with that.

@0x1mm

PvP does not equal combat. Less money encourages more conflict, which drives themely RP, which is a huge part of the game.

I agree on a number of these points.

It's jarring to see Mixer PCs flagrantly wealth because they simply follow automated systems. I had a recent interaction where a Mixer offered to do something for no less than 50k because THAT'S their standard now.

It was previously argued that Mix incomes were allowed to be so high because of all the death and loss, which I think everyone who's been around for a while can safely say has diminished over time. The game will always have conflict averse people, but I think the Mix is far more safer than it ever has been before (for better and for worse, of course) but as a result you see people very easily playing all fluff and no grit because corp RP pays less and there's more oversight for RP topside.

Less money encourages more conflict, which drives themely RP, which is a huge part of the game.

Does it? Because the way the factions structure is designed, the players who would seemingly be the most encouraged to engage in conflict are also the richest. The system as coded would rather argue the contrary point.

@HC Mix is gentrified!
Characters in factions who are in conflict with each other are given more resources in order to help them maintain conflict. They are supposed to be richer than people outside of their factions. It should be difficult for outsiders who do not have similar factional support to challenge these players because of this disparity.

As-is, that simply is not the case. Every baka on the street has enough of a hoard to stick their face in the beehive as many times as they want. Forget cross-sector RP, Red has a lot of problems with intra-sector RP because of this.

@0x1mm

The reason people are in those positions is because they're not conflict averse.

That being said, I think that another potential solution is an increased of fines and hammering down by the WJF. I understand that the reason these fines have become more "polite" over time is because it promotes more people doing things, but you also end up getting laughable fines like 10k in a month for established characters for violent crimes, which any Mixer with any know-how can shrug off. Most people could care less with how things are now, free to make money off automated systems unimpeded.

And I'll eat the UJA for this post to make a point ;P

And no, that's not a contradictory idea.

Joe the loner should be dirt poor and struggling.

Joe the ganger should be hustling hard enough to have some gear.

Joe the high end solo should be taking enough dirty money that he can do his job.

Joe the big-shot supercriminal should have enough money to fund a criminal empire, putting other PCs to work and making sure all the Mixers have just enough to get by, and maybe a little more if they're ready to do some terrible things.

None of these people should be sitting on so much money that they ever feel comfortable. Their means simply need to scale up alongside their needs.

The younger Mixers of today must be smarter than me.

In my day, I ran crates for hours and almost fell over when someone handed me a wallet with 5k for rent.

@Adea

A lot of that has come from a "We're all in this together!" mentality.

People are more than willing to share their tips and tricks, because it doesn't hurt them for everyone else to know how to game the system.

If Joe Baka knows that telling all his friends they can make 10k doing X once a week without any hit to his wallet, and they tell all their friends...

There is not a player in the game making 80/week or anything anywhere close to that.

We are looking into trimming some revenue streams for mixers, but the situation isn't absolutely dire as portrayed.

Most characters with large bank accounts are on the higher end or they have simply grinded out a lot of paycheques over a long period of time.

@HC

That makes total sense. Without sounding like I'm ancient, my immigrant experience was consistent poverty, barely making ends meet, and saving for weeks for the minimum required to survive. We didn’t have immigrant greeters and there wasn’t a sense of making huge amounts of money.

I wouldn’t necessarily say that my experience was better or somehow meant more... but I wonder if the scales have been tipped too far in the other direction. Based on this thread, it seems so?

@Storm

I certainly don't mean to doomsay or imply a crisis.

The situation's not dire and the game's not going to hell in a handbasket, but some tweaks could create more conflict.

As a general counter point to this whole thread, I have personally been hiring mixers to do shady things for large sums of money and have been quite successful at getting people to compromise their morals, take huge risks, and other fun cyberpunky things.

Maybe people who are thinking the Mix is too rich just aren't coming up with creative/fun/exciting enough plots? Or maybe not paying enough? Not trying to make a dig here, just saying I've currently got two very cool plots in motion and they're being carried out by Mixers.

Maybe the difference is some players who play Mixers are more down for the hardcore action and others aren't and sometimes it's hard to find the right ones to hire?

I would just caution that experienced players may not appreciate the fact that as the game gets easier for them as they accrue that OOC experience, it does not commensurately get easier for new players.

It's a common refrain to see long-time players complaining that things are too easy, or too soft, or whatever else -- because they've learned how to game the system OOCly, and Sindome no longer presents that same challenge to them it once did. You can never go home again, re-live that struggle again, and slowly turning up the heat so you feel yourself sweat again will have the collateral damage of making Sindome even less approachable and hostile to new players than it is.

I don't have an issue with toning down automated income. The hard-coded limit being so easily gamed was silly, just make it an actual hard-coded limit so we're not playing 'fool the system', but I do note this pretty common trend of players who want a certain punishing experience for themselves trying to make that the norm, and I don't necessarily think Sindome needs to be any less accessible than it is.

Work immigration for a few months if you have doubts about how hard it is to integrate new players into the game. I think players take it for granted how much they know, and how much what they consider trivial is anything but.

I don't think we need a full scale communist revolution on people playing by taking their shit, Or advocating for a harder game because I'm bored, I am simply saying that it is an injustice to the unique horrible setting of the mix when a majority of the playerbase is well-to-do and happy and juggling chyen stacks because they ran a tire iron for someone.
I generally agree with the point in this thread, with one distinction - Someone that you may think is making an ungodly amount of chyen is possibly paying that to someone else that runs them, or supplies them, or whatever else. Just because someone handles cash doesn't mean they are keeping it all. :) I realize this isn't accurate in all scenarios, but it does apply to some.

On to solutions. I think the limit being the limit (No going over it) would be a great simple first step. It's not going to solve the whole issue, though.

At least in my timezone I think this thread targets a few, very specific characters. I trust the staff made careful adjustments but I can't help but think that the call for action in this thread causes unintentional damage.

I've known maybe one mixer who was so rich that they flaunted their wealth like a topsider. Everyone else was usually in that uniquely mix proposition where they hoard things for 8 weeks and then burn it all overnight in a plot.

I'm just struggling to see the point of this. All this would do is making that 8 weeks hoarding into 16 for most, maybe give 2 or 3 people more RP, but take away from far more.

Essentially this inflates the value of already hoarded chyen. We'd be giving one or two key people in the mix even more buying power. Communist revolution, Grizzly? This is the exact opposite.

I was speaking towards the taking property from players just because they might have more then everyone else just for the sake of culling their stash.

Sorry for double post, but I want to make a critical comment on what Mobius said:

I feel that a lot of the reasoning behind why some people might be hesitant in taking a 20k job is... because often times the equipment needed and money to burn to source some additional help goes vastly over that.

So the only incentive a person might take that job would be as an IC favor, sort of trying to groom the relationship and network, or might be an OOC one, simply because it looks interesting.

A lot of the quote-unquote intra-sector conflict in red mostly comes from 'I don't like Joebaka' or "Joebaka and I work for different people so we must hate each other' and sometimes it's a challenge to get some authenticity. The suspension of disbelief is just non-existent and you end up thinking if this plot is even really worth my 3 weeks of grinding.

I could be reading too much into it.

I actually think the problem is exactly the opposite of what I'm seeing a lot of people in this thread say. The mix doesn't have enough money. You're not going to want to risk your 100k worth of equipment it takes to pull off a Gold Level job for 20k if it will take you a year to get it back. That's a year you can't do those gigs and are missing out.

You want people to do crimes? Make the ability to recover from the consequences of being caught be a fairly easy process.

ALSO, one huge thing I think is missing from this thread, is that Sindome is an RP game, not a combat game. By reducing automated income sources, you reduce the size of the base of the wealth pyramid. When non-combat characters can't afford to hire combat characters, then combat characters starts accumulating all the wealth. Support characters are disincentivized and thus disappear, dramatically reducing the opportunity for RP.

Sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to throw in...

Tie automated income to non-combat stats/skills on a proportional basis. If you have the ability to take chyen and resources from other players, that's how you should do it. if you're a sheep for the fleecing, the game should equip you to be such.

If 99% of your UE is in combat related stuff, 99% of automated income is blocked from you, for example.

There's really very few income avenues not open to a combat-specialized character, and most of them are minor -- I would certainly agree that non-combat oriented players could be far, far better supported, especially in the context that they're supposed to be acting as chyen wells for all the players who desire to survive by the hard-scrabble fight for their lives.
I'm gonna go ahead and give a few thoughts here, I've been avoiding posting on the forums, because I was instructed to cool down. This is going to be a novel because I'm responding to the whole thread and likely not going to respond to individual posts to prevent my argumentative nature from seeping out into toxicity.

So here's some things I'm going suggest. With a preamble that I think the mix isn't overtly too rich, it's just too safe right now due to the player base being risk averse. Adding risk into the system would counter that.

First off, the cap for automated income is too low if it is to be a hard cap. Especially when you take into account the costs of working some of these items, and the risks you take peddling them around.

Even accounting for theme, the idea

In addition I'd suggest if it were to be made a hard cap, that it be increased by 50% at least to 150% at most generous. This maximum value would still cut a full third out of the incomes of those who exploit the softness of the cap to a large degree.

Second off, I'd suggest increasing income consistently across the board for entry level mix positions, however I would also say making these incomes automatically be deducted from the cap or in the case that a cap is raised, making it so that they do not count against automatic income sources.

Third off, if it's not already a thing, add a stipend for shop owners to represent ambient traffic in and out of the business daily. Make this count to their automatic income, giving them a source of it other than the lame street traffic methods.

Fourth off, this gets into the specific income direction discussion, but revamp deathball to have a lot more risks. I had three paragraphs talking about how, but that's not the purpose of the thread.

Fifth off, I think that there should be more ways for non-combat characters to make money... Even just allowing them to retain nice shit without having to be a combat monster as well, would be awesome. With a like bodyguard command or something... This dips into other suggestion territory so I'll keep it out of here mostly though...

That's all I got

It ate a large paragraph there. Even accounting for theme, the cost of living in the mix is very high, and it would stop money from spreading out if you were to reduce it too much.

When people have lest excess to spend they have less to do.

People are risk averse because they can succeed in the game without taking risks. Automated income should not really be risky, it's meant to provide a baseline so everyone has a little bit of money to work with (or steal). That's it.

If someone is only offering you 20k for a job you realistically stand to lose 100+k on, you need a new Johnson or they need a new client.

I'm just thoroughly mind blown at the level of discrepancy in our experiences. On one hand you are saying people should be more involved in conflict and that conflict is a main way to get rid of chyen in game, but on the other hand you say income should be slashed so everybody has a reason for a conflict.

Okay, but how about the fact that even through fixers, for most if not all archetypes the very basic tool that drives conflict easily costs a weekly limit easily if not double or triple that? Or about artistry characters and other creatives in the game? You really can't have the cake and eat it too.

All that will be achieved is lowering the amount of Chyen in circulation. It WILL depreciate the in game economy. The only people that would benefit from this would be the combat characters with little RP ties with anybody outside of their immediate circle.

I'm just thoroughly mind blown at the level of discrepancy in our experiences. On one hand you are saying people should be more involved in conflict and that conflict is a main way to get rid of chyen in game, but on the other hand you say income should be slashed so everybody has a reason for a conflict.

Okay, but how about the fact that even through fixers, for most if not all archetypes the very basic tool that drives conflict easily costs a weekly limit easily if not double or triple that? Or about artistry characters and other creatives in the game? You really can't have the cake and eat it too.

All that will be achieved is lowering the amount of Chyen in circulation. It WILL depreciate the in game economy. The only people that would benefit from this would be the combat characters with little RP ties with anybody outside of their immediate circle.

Excuse my triple post, but we need to divorce the IC lore and theme with OOC situation. Yeah, of course realistically people will reach the equilibrium in finding the right job with the right amount of pay for the abilities they got. Whether this happens quick enough or brings misery to those people is an inherently political discussion that we probably shouldn't have.

However this is a game with a very small community. Often times there aren't any other johnsons or fixers. Let's take a step back and look at it from an OOC angle and if this is really a good experience for anybody.

No. Conflict is not a "way to get rid of chyen", it's what you're supposed to be doing when you play Sindome. It's where you should be trying to earn your money if you're a Mixer.
Maybe some of us get involved in plenty of conflict that doesn't revolve around making money. And just maybe this isn't a game with 14 concurrent players anymore.
I don't see what player count has to do with anything.
The larger player base means catering to a greater spread of interests; both in terms of gameplay and roleplay. Violent conflict might be the raison d'être for a subset of players, but it's not the primary purpose or interest for many others.

Beating this constant drum of more misery, more violence, more suffering is just going to drive away the players that are the social lifeblood of the game. Conflict is only desirable when it's fun, and if combat-oriented players are enjoying themselves what's the problem? Does someone else have to suffer for them to have a good time?

Honestly, the case could probably be made that right now, Topside has the economy the Mix is 'supposed' to have, where income tends to be pretty constrained and if you want big money for big things, you're probably going to have to take some bananas risks for a big short-term payout. The Mix, on the other hand, has the economy Topside is 'supposed' to have where characters get nice and flush with a steady stream of income and can comfortably pay out to other people to get them things. In theory, this is because you have way less safety as others have stated, but that dip in safety only reliably comes into effect if you're putting yourself out there and taking risks.

So yeah, I think this is a good tweak to be made.

Then how hard are you thinking about this, Vera?

There are a ton more players in the mix compared to topside, and that's only counting the consistently returning ones who have some experience under their belts. If you count the casual players, it would certainly dwarf topsiders in comparison.

Lately (I'm mostly talking about the year) there have been very enterprising mixers who really put their backs into expanding their hustle, and they absolutely make a filthy amount of chy compared to the rest of everybody. I've personally interacted with those characters and I can tell you they don't do it by abusing the system. The way their hustle is structured is that they benefit more from more players down in the mix. It's simply built that way.

I know the exact specifics of the abuse you are talking about. I've done it a couple times since I started playing because that's just what everybody did. This is why sometime in May they did a balance pass and nerfed the payout once. I think that's worked fairly well, but one specific item that gets flipped en masse could probably see anouther pass (which I assume they did). Often times though the item is acquired legitimately and usually gets passed around with more and more fees attached, ultimately just netting a couple grands at most to the final seller. So it's nowhere near how much you make it sound bad.

There are maybe one or two problem players I've personally witnessed who 'farm' npcs for this. Believe it or not the staff pays attention to this. Just a week or two ago someone got OOC shouted for doing it.

The staff is in control. You are over-assessing the problem and proposing that everyone gets punished for it. Your proposal is basically a rebranded trickle-down reaganomics proven time and time again doesn't work. All it's going to achieve is lower the amount of cash in circulation, shoo away casual players even more, and the worst aspect of this is that the ones who benefit from cheesing the system will always find a way to squeeze out every last chy out of the game.

I don't think players who sequester themselves and avoid all conflict are bringing a whole lot to the table for everyone else, and the fact that you keep insisting I mean violent conflict is kinda telling. Most conflict is social. Data, getting people in and out of factions, popularity contests, competing to sell on a crowded market. That's where most of the drama of Sindome happens. Money exists to incentivize all kinds of conflict and provide a tangle win/loss scenario. No it's not the be-all end-all but acting like money doesn't matter is not playing to theme.

And if you want to avoid all conflict and hide in your own bubble then it shouldn't matter how much or how little you're pulling in on crates or whatever. You aren't putting anything on the line so you don't need a ton of chips to do so.

I'm sorry if I stepped on your nerves. Maybe I worded some things strongly. That said, let's step back to assuming the best intentions in everybody, which I have from the get go. I really believe that you want the best for the game, and you are proposing a way to improve things. It's just the whole thing sounds almost game-endingly bad for a lot of us.

I'm really frustrated that we cannot talk about current IC events in a discussion like this. Even the people you think who sit around in a pad all day just writing a paragraph of text to print text get involved with RP and drama. Sometimes weighing so much so that it starts affecting them in real life.

Maybe think of it this way. There are probably people who just deliver crates and sit in their membership pad all day sponging UE, sure. I can get that. But the ones who seemingly have an unending supply of cash down in the mix by only interacting with their bubble, don't you think maybe they somehow carved out a niche in a hostile world?

What could possibly more cyberpunk than that? Case didn't 'win' win. He just fumbled around and got a small victory at the cost of everyone he met in the journey. He won by carving out a niche.

Maybe the ones you perceive as doing nothing for the game has a story of their own going. Story so emotional and so strong that it shapes who they are even in real life. Think about that. And who knows, down the line they could very well bankroll someone for a great conflict for the money they hoarded?

Knowing how trivially easy it is to visit violence on people, and how much violence already dominates the social arithmetic of Sindome, I can't say I've ever felt that conflict-interested players and particularly combat-specialized conflict-interested players were ever anything but the most supported and more encouraged as it is. I'd be surprised to hear anyone's experiences differing in that regard.
Inside Case's niche, he was hardly laid and comfortable and was busy casually fucking people over and on the run from people who want to fuck him over for his shit. The things you gain should never make you comfortable and complacent and forming a bubble should not hold you for very long.

Or, in the game's terms, you can do a lot of roleplay to yourself but if you're not out to earn more for yourself through conflict and adversity, you're kind of just stagnating and distancing yourself from the spirit of the game.

Case wasn't particularly 'casually fucking people over'. Maybe we read the different Neuromancer. He was good hearted, even from the get go. Even when he was getting fucked over he didn't hire a solo to chase down his ex girlfriend. As things slowly went sideways he just raised his hand and said fuck it, did a ton of drugs and chased ass. In the end things worked out, but it was more miracle than anything. It was just luck. Pure luck. He was simply a passenger in the overarching plot he was in for the most part, until he was absolutely compelled to act.

This is why I brought up Case. A lot of the players some of us assume as a passive player might just be an adaptive player. People who are comfortable with their characters and where they are at for now, and would like to keep exploring themselves and people around them. But when things change or hit the fan, they would spring into action. Sure, they might not be laying out 100k plot every week involving half the moo, but does everybody have to?

What exactly would cutting the income half(approximately) for the active hustlers achieve anything in forcing these players to lay out plots? I would imagine it would just make them disinterested, if anything.

Case wasn't passive, he was reluctant to get involved until they made him an offer he couldn't refuse. He was enemies with absolutely everyone except Molly and he fought hard to get what he wanted, to the point where he took her simstims and started killing fools himself to get the goods and unleash God knows what on the world, and he did it all just for the thrill of decking

The people I'm talking about aren't Cases.

I do have to say, economic issues and literary analysis aside, I'm not especially swayed by players living in literal fortresses beyond all consequences saying there's not enough danger, players specialized in the most powerful skill-sets saying the gameplay is too easy, or players whose characters would not exist if the consequences of their actions had been greater saying there's not enough consequences.

It all rather strikes me as pearl-clutching over issues that don't exist except as beneficial fictions for certain characters and archetypes.

Decking was his identity. And it was taken away from him. It wasn't the thrill of killing whoever that he found joy in. The whole reason why Case simstimed into Molly was because he was keeping watch and had to see what she was seeing and feeling, no? (Unrelated, but I thought he had no control over Molly at that point.) He was also not very antagonistic. He was cynical and desperate, yes, but vindictive and blood-raving? No. But all of this argument on Neuromancer ultimately meaningless, because at the end of the day everyone's going to takeaway different things from books. If anything, that is the biggest proponent about what I'm about to say.

None of us have any idea who is or can be Case or Molly.

The game is built that way with strict ban on talking about recent IC events and disclosing IC identities (though I assume most vets know who I play from me catastrophic kev months ago). None of us, and I mean none, have even a glmpse of an idea of what anyone is doing, how they are experiencing things, and what they are putting out into the world.

So shit, I don't know, maybe let's all just cut people some slack and avoid pre-emptively punishing people. I honestly think things are fine as is, and from the looks of it the staff adjusted problem areas.

idk 0x1mm it kinda sounds like you think players should be able to engage with NPCs for conflict and money but not PCs. That's pretty meta.
I have zero opinion on what any player should do -- I believe every player has the right to play however they like within the defined rules of the game.

You don't like how someone role-plays? Don't interact with them. It's a pretty simple rubric.

I don't have the option not to roleplay with certain people, just as I don't have the option to only pursue conflict with NPCs because it's against the rules.
Also this notion there's a horde of social dead-weight selfishly and undeservedly hoarding wealth at the expense of a selfless vanguard of themely killers is just utter Randian fiction. The most famous conflict-interest and conflict-driving characters had just as much pad idling, wealth hoarding, relationship drama, sex, and petty selfishness as any other character.

This is a problem that simply doesn't exist, presented in service to solving what should be an IC issue through OOC means.

OK well staff agreed with me that it existed and swiftly took action when I showed them some numbers so idk agree to disagree.
What we agreed was that the mix had grown plump and lacked hunger. This is a problem in regard to theme and in regard to how we want to see cash flow. That is our focus.

If you follow the @rules and don't UE sponge, you can RP how you like as long as you keep it themely. You can be a brash, traitorous fighter type or a recluse that does nothing but moosexes. But we will consider what you bring to the game when deciding where to throw opportunities and wealth.

We like PCs that create conflict, RP and fun. How they do that can vary. Very much. So focus less on the how and look more at the what. :-)

Reducing incomes without adjusting cost of living and fixed costs is tantamount to a synthetic recession — which have been comprehensively demonstrated to reduce spending, reduce investment, and increase saving.

Governments stimulate their economies by encouraging borrowing and investment and spending during a recession, they don't stop printing money and raise interests rates (hopefully), all that does is sends people in survival mode where they don't risk anything because there's no recovering if something goes wrong.

It may be that staff have access to economic data that shows that players do less when they have more currency in game — Sindome is definitely an artificial system that may very well not behave like a natural economy — but this is the opposite to how spending and stimulus and investment function in economies today, hence my caution that the cause will generate the desired effect.
I believe most comments in this thread are blowing situations out of proportion. The Mix is not fluffy, it's not safe, and it's certainly not plush.

If anything, there's a established group of predominant factions or characters that lay the status quo and keep things "in order" because their severe backhanded punishments. Which is okay?

Pay more attention to IC events and how characters have been taking risks and shitting in somebody's oatmeal.

I think Villa is right here and things are getting blown out of proportions. If there is a stock pile of chy going and risk averse characters are holding it, it can be liberated.

His second point, maybe the pee-pee smackings for things maybe made the rest of the populace want to refrain from doing much else. I know I've been on the receiving end before and not knowing why, and it's sucked badly when you're not one on either end of the awesome spectrum but just one of the pawns.

Another thing maybe not accounted for is players time they can invest in playing. I've mentioned this before, but not everyone can play all day and yes making chy through PC interaction should be paramount, shutting down the automatic means don't really help to assist players that maybe only have a few hours a day to play. I'd rather them be able to get some decent chy to try to work something then be consistently shut down because they don't "Invest enough time" into playing. As someone who maybe gets a good solid four to play per day (weekly average) with a few small bumps in between.. this shit can be more stressful trying to manage than my real life job.

I think this as a problem is a bit overstated, but it's definitely something to consider. The automated income thing helps fixers, immigrants and potentially gangers. The secret sauce of how that all works out could use some tweaking.

I don't like the idea that being part of a Mix faction or gang should be a way of gatekeeping people's ability to make flash. You should be able to be successfully independent in the Mix if you're smart about it. There should be greater equity and a greater cause for factions to compete for minions rather than having them all drive towards factions out of necessity and then killed by rival factions for getting involved.

I think part of the reason the Mix feels stagnant (if it does) is because the core Mix conflict seems to have been stagnant for a while. Too much power is tied up among too few factions and players and it creates constant violence for low-end characters that they may not want to get involved in.

I hear things like, 'we need more conflict,' but conflict and desperation don't need to equal each other. IMO, when people are desperate they may become more risk averse, not less. I always point to the Gang Treaty, which made gangs fun. You could create more conflict by making the syndicates more like the gangs, for instance, safer to get involved in, etc. I know that goes against the whole aesthetic of the game but it did fix the gangs.

Just wanted to say that I think the changes already introduced have satisfied my initial complaints. It no longer feels like it's raining money and that's good.

As for faction dominance/balance, that's less gamewide and probably ought to be looked at on a case by case basis. It's always been a thing to varying degrees as long as I've been around though.

@Crooknose

There's no gatekeeping when it comes to make your own money your own way, you just have to go and do it and not get caught to get away with it without consequences.

There is plenty of conflict in the Mix and it's certainly not stagnant, especially with NPCs pushing it constantly with their own agendas. There's a clear reason why topsiders are scared of Red and some people who live there flee topside because of how shitty it is to live there.

A syndicate treaty isn't going to work in an organic and themely way. I wish I could explain the reasons, but I can't, so apply common sense.

A lot of the people who say "oh wow the mix is fluffy" are simply not involved in the sphere of conflict that's occurring at all times, maybe if it's not being broadcasted to shitheads on public SIC nor made public interest it doesn't mean it's not actually happening?
A syndicate treaty isn't going to work in an organic and themely way. I wish I could explain the reasons, but I can't, so apply common sense.

Factual.

That's my point. People hate the flavor of it but it accomplished the goal of making gangs playable and equitable. You have to balance IC and OOC concerns.
Well, it's not to say these things don't exist with real time examples. Notable examples is when the Bloods and Crips united for a bit to combat their real enemy, or when feuding outlaw motorcycle clubs join the CoC (coalition of clubs). Even the USA has talks with Al Qaeda, so it is not ENTIRELY out of the spectrum of realistic actions that might occur, though, it did feel crammed and forced and probably makes being a gang member odd or see people that wouldn't fit the gang mold giving it a go, it's not really a bad thing.

Syndicates are totally different. Explaining why would be counterproductive and revealing.

The change made doesn't fix the problem as stated in this thread. It just promotes characters running boxes and doing menial labor when they should be established and long-since weaned off the immy economy.

People attempting to break into fixing at this point are going to have a rough time. Sure, there's those certain NPC's that are looking for extremely random items that can pay well, but there's not really much inter-player economy happening there.

I'd also like to point out the super obvious things regarding this change:

-Doesn't touch the actual money makers (as in skills) in the mix.

-NPC's who carry valuable goods are still oblivious to all but the most junior of dips, and still don't take even basic steps to protect their valuable wares, as one might assume a smart NPC would do.

-Some 'mixer' jobs still pay more per week than corporate jobs when you take cost of living into account. Significantly more when you consider running boxes is totally okay as a mixer in -most- mix jobs.

-Penalizes players of certain archetypes significantly more than others.

-Fixing is still a high-risk activity when compared to some other time-tested and proven money makers. People not robbing, extorting or murdering people carrying literal briefcases packed with chyen on supply runs is not a 'fixing' problem, it's a community problem. Again, the same with using runners to move easily stolen products.

Overall, I think the change made was short-sighted and disproportionately impacts certain types of characters, and only lightly impacts others. It's going to create gaps in the playerbase between their respective trickle incomes, and it vastly promotes using some skills over others. I don't support it.

My perception and experience is completely the opposite of TalonCzar's on all points. This all feels really good.
The change made has happened in the past both to increase and decrease the numbers effected.

First the payouts went way up to stimulate Mix economy. (maybe last year)

Then the payouts dropped a little to ease back on the faucet (months ago)

Now the payouts dropped a little more to ease back further (new change)

People who are saying that this change is some massively impactful overhaul aren't paying attention to what is going on, or assume that the life they've been living in the Mix is how it has always been and should be. That isn't it. And frankly its a completely IC and realistic thing for big recovery or recessions to happen.

All that changed is less payouts. A little less than the last change, and a little less than the change before that. The change before that was a MASSIVE increase, clearly I can't give numbers, but we're just near the bottom of the slide. Players are upset because we let them live at the top and middle of the slide for a long time.

Times change and money gets tight, this is a recession in the story.

Dreamer,

While I appreciate the metaphor, I think this this hurt specifically the exact people that should be thriving in this recession. The Fixers.

The reduced payout for the items adjusted dramatically reduces the margins for the character that have to pay for these items to have them sold, while characters who are codedly able to get multiples of these items at no cost to themselves are not really prevented from continuing to rake in the money.

Just my thoughts based on observing how things panned out this last week. Not saying that the change was unneeded, just that the people most and least affected by this are inverted in my opinion.

I can't say too much but I think it only hurt uncreative fixers, which, good.
While I do agree with RedSteelButterfly to a large extent, I also think I agree with Vera's sentiment.

If you're a fixer-character and you now find yourself with no income stream after the recent changes, perhaps it's actually a good change (despite my initial personal feelings to the contrary).

The real fun and the real fixing doesn't ever need to involve an NPC at all. Don't get bummed out and look at it as the GMs stealing away your cake, use it as motivation to get out there and learn how to get into the more interesting side of biz.

The GMs might have taken the cherry off the top of the fixer-cake with the recent change, but all of that fluffy chocolate spongecake goodness is still there, go find it, eat it, have it, whatever it is you want to do with your cake.

Good luck! :)

Stopped reading somewhere in the middle.

I am a bit baffled that this is how people look at it, cutting down on what I make, would hurt it quite a bit, too.

I do not hoard, I either put my money on gear, vanity or people. People, to build friendships and hoping they may become someone... notable that owes me a favour or two.

It comes at a rate that makes it incredibly difficult to hoard any kind of money at all.

The only reasons I can think of to hoard money as a Mixer would be to either gain a capital to start doing things with, or to buy a business in red... or both. Probably both.

I can't say too much but I think it only hurt uncreative fixers, which, good.

By uncreative fixers, you mean the people actually using the -skill- associated with fixing? That's pretty insulting to the people who spent tons of UE to become good at said skill. Because that's what this change does. It hurts people using the game system specifically made for this exact thing.

If we're going to refer to anyone who handles stolen or fresh-blood covered items as fixers, well, then, that means that basically everyone in the game is a fixer.

Just reiterating: Murdering people(including NPC's) and selling their drek to other NPC's got a light tweak. People who buy the goods from coded vendors for resale to NPC's got punched in the genitals.

TalonCzar:

This is something we are considering and watching. But It doesn't matter if it's take from NPC/System then sell to NPC/System or if it's Buy from NPC/System then sell to NPC/System. Both cases lack much in the way of PC involvement. So we will watch and adjust as needed. I certainly don't want any one group of players to suffer more than others. Thank you for the feedback.

Qurion2:

It's not about making all the mixers poor. Not completely; we want you hungry but for a specific reason. It's about adjusting where you get that flash from and how. I can assure you all that there is still a LOT of flash to be gained - it is 100% there. Even for fixers. But we do want to adjust things so that the vast majority of mixer income is not via NPCs and automated systems.

Having had a chance to think over it some, I want to amend my last comment, since I don't think it was terribly constructive and overly dramatic.

Times are flush or times are lean, and this is just an adjustment to overall chyen availability.

It seems that Mobius and the other staff are well aware of potential issues with rate adjustments and have a great handle on things.

Talonczar: When I say uncreative fixers I am not talking about people who have actually invested the skill. I'm talking about people whose hustle goes no farther than selling to NPCs like you're unloading WoW loot.

Get smart. Deal with PCs. Figure out the angles. The money didn't go anywhere, it's just not as simple to get.

From what I've seen corporate characters are kind of stingy and generally make dealing with them not worth the time and frustration, but I suppose tuning the Mix payouts down may have an effect in eliminating a competitor to topside payers and give them some real power to actually create some ripples beyond the Divide. If so, I think it would be good for QoL if corpies actually get more passive income on top of money that they can make from RP, that way they have more of an ability to make their errands actually worth doing.
Corpies aren't stingy, maybe you're just not offering something they need when they need it.

Just my 2 chy. If you actually offer a service they need, when they need it - You'll be properly compensated.

The issue is there's nothing that people truly "need" in Sindome. I've noticed that Mixers will tip handsomely for people to do something lame that they don't feel like doing, but corporate characters seem to be played by people who would rather endure the pain than involve other people in it, to the detriment of both themselves and a theoretical Mixer. Back when I was playing a topside toon, I saw a few really rich midbies take levs and avoid cabs and do a lot of weird things because they would rather endure the intentionally terrible aspects of Sindome than part with their hard-earned chy. Negative reinforcement never works in Sindome. It just makes people eat the shit and feel miserable.
Changes are in place, and it's been a couple weeks. I want to know everyone's impression on this. My personal experience has been not very ideal. I wasn't really affected much, but I definitely see a large disparity between people with certain skill set and people who lack it.