[12:54:44 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] A New Discussion has begun! The Topic is 'GM response to crime as relates to xhelping about crime (or lack there of)'. Discussion will remain open for the next hour.
[12:55:00 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] chanoch has joined the channel.
[12:55:01 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Oh neat!
[12:55:03 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo has joined the channel.
[12:55:19 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Some feedback I've heard lately is that people have been doing crime topside and there isn't a big world response to it.
[12:55:38 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm has joined the channel.
[12:55:50 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): But part of that is due to us relaxing the rules on xhelping before doiong topside crime, like bombing something. (help crime)
[12:55:50 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy has joined the channel.
[12:56:28 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): So I'm interested to hear how we might address this, while also not making players xhelp whenever they are going to do crime, cause like, we can only respond to stuff we know about / are around for.
[12:56:31 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I've noticed this, in terms of corporate lobby bombings in particular. The thing is, I don't think the Xhelp rule should come back on the lobby bombings, but it's definitely anticlimactic to not get response from the world. Maybe there should be code in corporate lobbies that immediately start a sequence on SIC yelling about a bomb? 
[12:56:38 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think the response to crime is pretty measured.
[12:56:53 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: If you target NPC's the response is lackluster because that's a lackluster attempt.
[12:57:01 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: That is a very good point
[12:57:03 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Beepboop has joined the channel.
[12:57:07 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: If you target PC's and hurt them you'll get a much more significant response.
[12:57:19 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Not just by GM's but by other PC's.
[12:57:57 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: There needs to be a paradigm shift in how we treat NPC's if crime against NPC's is considered lesser to crime against PC's.
[12:58:20 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I don't think it's considered lesser per say
[12:58:21 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Is that any different from a response from say a gang?
[12:58:35 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Just that GMs can't respond to stuff they aren't around for.
[12:58:37 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I've always felt that lobby bombings were rather un-creative but sometimes they just gotta be done. Maybe have similar code to the automatic ganger battle code, for  yelling and SIC.
[12:58:38 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: If you kill Kensuke its a lot different than if you kill a PC Snake, right?
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[12:58:59 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Mirino: I agree with Reefer. Also just because it doesn't seem like anything is happening behind the scenes doesn't mean there really is not.
[12:59:31 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Notionally they can be the same thematically, but I think Reefer is right in that if a player targets NPCs they're going to get what they get, which might be nothing.
[12:59:31 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): But Reefer has a good point that killing an NPC has less of an impact in that there is no emotion attached to it in most cases, the NPC respawns, it didn't fuck up anyones day ICly in most cases.
[13:00:37 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: That's just the way it is with attacking NPCs. There's low stakes for that most of the time.
[13:00:46 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Leudo has joined the channel.
[13:00:50 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Just like we talked about a lack of mentorship/guides last time, I feel like it might be worth having some sort of secret book, or a knowledgeable PC or NPC or whatever, to help give us ideas on  how to target PCs topside.
[13:01:11 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: I think bombing big places like the mall should have a different impact, though, but that might be something that's @noteworthy for later reaction?
[13:01:24 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: Random question but how often is crime meant to happen/happen in the general 'lore' or ambience of the city topside? Is ZMI getting molotovs thrown in their lobby in east gold or whatever?
[13:01:29 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: The key is understanding the workflow for corporate PCs and what brings them into work or to xyz then staging a ambush.
[13:02:05 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Crime is more than terrorism.
[13:02:10 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I guess, but at least in my complaints, these 'npc attacks' have been done after considerable amounts of both IC planning with the staff and PC's as well as OOC planning with the staff 'notes/puppet requests/etc' even if there is something directed at the global populous during events like this there is ample opportunity for the staff to say 'HEY sorry, we can't do this' through IC means. The crux at least in my experience has been laying up large scale things that have then gone almost entirely un noticed by the world. 
[13:02:36 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Gold is supposed to be safer than Red, not as safe as Green. It's supposed to have crime. It's a hard question to answer though, because Withmore isn't a real city, right? So like, in a real city a corporate HQ being bombed would lead to like, so much security that it would be impossible to actually bomb it. But that wouldn't be fun from a game perspective. SO I don't want a bombing to seem 'everyday' even if it happens... every day.
[13:02:38 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: True 0x1, I'd be interested in more ideas for different types of crime.
[13:02:54 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: yeah fair lol
[13:03:58 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think the more these things impact PCs the more PCs have an opportunity to make it known how impactful it was to their world.
[13:04:04 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: So, I think your core components are: Corporate Espionage (Theft of projects or restricted goods such as biomods) // Terrorism (Often used to charade other acts or agendas i.e. blowing up vehicles to encourage repairs) // Murder (Targeting and ambushing people at specific places either individually or as a group)
[13:04:18 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Theft!
[13:04:22 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: Petty crimes like larceny are totally doable without GM intervention.
[13:04:24 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: omg theft of biomods
[13:04:41 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Fopsy: If it's up to the GMs to do all the leg work there, that is a high amount of effort in terms of making it seem like a lot of people were affected, and there isn't always time for that in the day. Not to say it shouldn't, in a perfect world, be accounted for.
[13:04:45 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: The most important component in anything like these is having insider knowledge. That came from a former employee or a current one but that's your best avenue.
[13:04:45 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Beepboop: Why not make it possible to disable autopilot on AVs, so ya can crash them into a building?
[13:05:00 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Y'all really like terrorism huh.
[13:05:14 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Slither, then do something about that before a bunch of players put in the leg work for it. 
[13:05:16 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: See the thing is there's not that many other showings of what topside crime can look like
[13:05:38 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Should get a @crime-idea command lol...but that would give ppl ideas on how to stop the crime before it even starts, which wouldn't be fun.
[13:05:40 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I am, I'm having this discussion Fopsy. 
[13:05:57 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: I'm only able to think of petty crimes off the top of my head.
[13:06:02 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): To gather ideas, and hear feedback. Cut me some slack, eh?
[13:06:09 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: So, I think the most important thing to understand in the have vs have-nots you need to subvert corporate resources.
[13:06:15 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: Graffiti, theft... pulling people into sewers.
[13:06:30 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Fighting on a level playing field is a myth. Even those limited attacks that are successful come at great cost.
[13:06:51 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: I think it's fair that if you get a cheap ass pipe bomb and throw it into NLM then run into the sewers you get a very small response (if any) because this is the corpie equivalent of beating up a tourist for their phone.
[13:06:55 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: You need to be constantly influencing and disrupting the corporate culture from the inside and outside to fight.
[13:07:08 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Interesting, what do you mean by corporate culture? 
[13:07:23 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Whatever people topside care about ICly.
[13:07:24 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I think terrorism requires a political motive by definition. I would be interested in seeing promoting more vehicle combat even if it needs to be put in players hands to get them to use it. I put in a ton of effort to just learn about vehicle weapons and came up empty handed and I don't think that vehicles are properly configured for the actual market of weapons. I think people might be more interested in doing crime with vehicles since it puts them a little bit separated from the front line.
[13:07:28 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Be the thing people talk about.
[13:07:33 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: It doens't have to be kangaroos...
[13:08:10 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Vehicle weapons aren't common for the same reason that topside is extremely safe and unrewarded to do crime on/at.
[13:08:18 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: What do people topside care about? 
[13:08:22 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Think of Withmore like a giant spinning wheel. The best thing you can do is spin it faster and faster. You will have opportunities to slow it down and take action but keeping the wheel spinning ithe priority as a community.
[13:08:24 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I guess also in terms of 'crimes', I guess in free societies this isn't a crime but journalism and the leaking/publishinng of information that corps would prefer to keep quiet, definitely could use some more reaction 
[13:08:35 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Whatever you make them care about, fopsy.
[13:08:44 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: 0x1mm sorry I am not familiar with those reasons.
[13:08:48 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Lets say a body is found topside. Irrelevant, right?
[13:08:50 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: Wealth and Status are general go-tos
[13:08:59 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Not if you suddenly spread rumor it was contaminated with a disease.
[13:09:02 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] chanoch: I feel like, in the case of say, a bombing where the perpetrator runs from the scene quickly, it's reasonable for GMs and other PCs to see the aftermath and respond later. Not necessarily at the time of the crime occuring.
[13:09:19 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: If you can undermine either one of those, most corporate characters will care. Especially if it's THEM
[13:09:20 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Jakey: The Hall of Justice.
[13:09:23 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): RE: Vehicle Combat, I really want a demolition derby thign where players pay X amount to enter and get to choose from a few different vehicle load outs, and then do the derby in those vehicles, and not give a shit if the vehicles are destroyed. Kinda like a RiotGear for vehicle combat, though there is the possibility of dying I guess. But low investment of resources from players, so there is low barrier to entry. That will get people 1. using vehicle combat so we can identify issues 2. more people used to what is possible so they can start plotting around it with vehicles outside of the derby.
[13:09:26 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Now you're pushing that rumor to NLm to make the grid and bombing shares in VS and conveniently blaming it all on a laboratory assistant you hate.
[13:09:29 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: there is no follow up action to a random throwing a bomb at NLM. the fire goes out and everyone goes back to normal 
[13:09:43 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I lvoe that idea Reefer
[13:09:56 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] chanoch: Oh hm. I'm a new player. Perhaps some aftermath could be added in somehow?
[13:10:00 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Slither I think that sounds really great!
[13:10:19 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: That's just a simple day to day tbh, svet.
[13:10:36 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Crime topside, and really everywhere else, has dwindled because the WJF is the everlasting plot stopper.
[13:10:37 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: true!:)
[13:10:41 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Yes ox1
[13:10:48 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: You just need to be constantly moving with whatever you can squeeze and exploiting resources to create that rabble.
[13:11:42 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I think the Hall was put at the center of the game's story and everything else suffered for it.
[13:11:44 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I wish corps leaned into the whole 'corporate sovereignty' thing more. Like, even the Law can't help you here, sort of thing.
[13:12:04 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: If I went to do some crime I feel like it's normal to expect the authorities to show up to try to stop me. 
[13:12:20 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: The expectation of a lawful society is the fiction that has become the theme.
[13:12:24 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: That's a good observation, 0x1
[13:12:28 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): says the guy with Jake in his name
[13:12:32 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): jkjk
[13:12:32 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana laughs.
[13:12:34 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Are they too efficient at stopping crime? I am really unfamiliar with that part of the game.
[13:12:48 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: The perception of their power is stopping crime, not rly their power itself.
[13:12:48 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] batko: hear me out guys
[13:12:49 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think the Law is very much in the middle but the law has IC opinions too.
[13:12:51 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: An iron clad centralized authority creating a safe suburbia was never cyberpunk.
[13:12:55 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] batko: move the hall of justice to Green
[13:13:02 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: they have the best gear in the game and the fastest cars, which is themely sure.
[13:13:15 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: They do not have the fastest cars.
[13:13:24 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: fast enough? XD
[13:13:28 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: And can be easily outgunned if you know what to do.
[13:13:31 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: ;-)
[13:13:42 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Reefer, I tried to do what you are alluding to as much as I can for as long as I can, and the struggle to get players interested on both sides of the coin is so insanely draining.          
[13:13:44 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I feel like corpsec RP dwindled as soon as all the RP-pushing, themely Corpsec agents went and joined the Cadet class.
[13:13:57 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: That's the #1 issue, fopsy.
[13:14:01 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I'd argue 2000 AD was never cyberpunk to begin with, and the Hall just takes the power fantasy aspect of Judge Dredd and ditches the actual dystopian parts of it.
[13:14:05 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Getting players to risk their asses.
[13:14:29 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: That's why if you note in the past they were threatened and brutalized until they had no choice by a certain person.
[13:14:38 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: In dredd the judges can only respond to like 4% of the crimes reported.
[13:14:38 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: To be brutally honestly I think neither the players nor the staff in general actually care. 
[13:14:43 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: So, we need a better way.
[13:14:49 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: That's a broad statement fopsy
[13:14:53 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: I think we should add ambient crime calls to WJF sic chatter.
[13:15:48 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: It is my experience to date, Some are, that is absolutely true. But most are not. Offering 40-80k to throw a weapon or a corporate lobby and to have it turned down by multiple people.
[13:15:52 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: So the problem might be that since the Judges are sitting around waiting for someone to do crime, they can respond to almost all attempts to do crime and they have clear advantages that make success on the criminal side pretty low?
[13:16:13 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I think Corpsec needs to step up.
[13:16:33 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: Turning down that much money for such a quick thing is crazy to me.
[13:16:33 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Villa: While technically possible, scripting out entire interactions with NPCs who do a crime is pretty tough and prone to issues. Especially when Judges can respond in a variety of ways. But it's definitely something I've considered.
[13:16:38 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: I would like if WJF couldn't tell an actual PC crime from a random NPC ambient crime. Right now all you have to do is sit in a corner and wait for Ops to ping you
[13:16:46 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Also fopsy it's all about risk and just, getting people to feel passionate about the cause you are pushing.
[13:17:07 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I'm not saying there's a simple way to do t hat
[13:17:11 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: Do they have to be real actual crimes? or just ambience ones?
[13:17:18 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: The Hall doesn't need to stop crimes, they can just keep player characters under their thumbs in observation to keep them from happening to begin with.
[13:17:49 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Which is what has continually happened, over and over. Hence: Plot stopper.
[13:17:57 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): It would be kinda bunk to have ambient crimes that real judges respond to only to show up and literally nothing has happened.
[13:17:58 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: It might feel really bad from a player Judge perspective to respond to crime all the time thats just something on SIC and not actually happening. Crying wolf so to speak.
[13:18:08 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: ^^
[13:18:39 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Well I also don't think there should be Judge PCs at all.
[13:18:44 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): And like, scripting out an entire crime between N NPCs, and such, it's possible like I said, but complicated.
[13:18:52 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: Yea, just an idea.
[13:19:04 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): it isn't a bad one! I would love to do that.
[13:19:06 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Maybe we need to make Media Gardens, Cobblestone Plaza, STerling Memorial Plaza etc, corporate territory.
[13:19:19 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: It should be all corporate territory, because it is.
[13:19:20 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Why is npc vs npc crime even being considered when PC vs npc crime is being told specifically to be avoided?
[13:19:30 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I've never understood why, if you toss a bomb into NLM for instance, it is under the WJF's jurisidction
[13:19:42 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): That is a misrepresntation of what's being said Fopsy.
[13:19:48 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Fair enough. 
[13:20:07 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): What has been said is that the most impactful things are going to be PC v PC.
[13:20:41 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): NPC v NPC crime is being proposed because it would mean Judges aren't just waiting for PC v NPC or PC V PC crime, and would not be as quick to respond to it when it happens.
[13:21:04 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Leudo: That sounds pretty cool to me.
[13:21:05 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Making Pc v anyone crime somewhat easier to accomplish, theoretically, yeah?
[13:21:28 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Idk I'm kinda liking batko's idea about putting the HOJ on green...
[13:21:34 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I think as long as there is going to be a powerful central authority with unusual mechanical and staff support, whose remit it is to prevent and prosecute crimes, everything else meant to promote crime gameplay is painting the drapes while the house burns down.
[13:21:45 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): you could accomplish this now technically, by having multiple crimes take place at the same time.
[13:21:47 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: The issue is that PC crime topside is not being responded to or having the impact it should currently. Having filler NPC vs NPC crime will only lesson the response and impact to PC crime surely???
[13:21:51 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): drawing judges off, and such.
[13:21:53 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: that's true slither
[13:22:18 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Doing the crime topside is not the issue, it is the response to it.
[13:22:41 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Okay, and what do you propose as a solution Fopsy?
[13:22:55 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: are you talking about WJF response being too hard, or about ambience response being too weak? or both?
[13:22:56 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Besides the staff just working harder.
[13:22:59 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Leudo has left the channel.
[13:23:27 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] batko: https://youtu.be/t0sTNLdNhuE?t=15
[13:23:43 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana snickers at batko.
[13:23:55 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] batko: my plan for topside crime, push the HoJ somewhere else
[13:24:11 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: TBH I would love if the HOJ was moved to green and we pretended it was always there lol
[13:24:24 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: what would go where the hall was?
[13:24:30 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Honestly it checks out. Gives the judges more of a buffer between themselves and Gold Sector... Hmm
[13:24:33 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: the demolition derby arena
[13:24:36 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I dunno if that would change anything. Wouldn't judges just sit in their cruisers where the crime was?
[13:24:46 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I'm not against discussing the idea, just that I think life adapats
[13:25:03 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Maybe they're not allowed to sit in their cruisers on gold....Then again, who's enforcing that law but the judges...
[13:25:08 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I think what Judges do now doesn't require them to be anywhere near crimes to stop them from happening.
[13:25:12 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] batko: im being funny but also this is seriously my suggestion, i have done crime on Gold and had PC judges respond in under 30 seconds, and i think this is partially because the HoJ is so central to literally everything on Gold
[13:25:29 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: same
[13:25:34 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I guess there's passive crime-stopping, and active crime-stopping
[13:25:43 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: The first time that Judges were barred from participating from a big plot so it could go forward, should have been the canary in the coal mine.
[13:26:16 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I do not think there is a solution to the issue that doesn't involve the staff in some capacity. Even automated systems that give a more realistic response, or continued chatter style response to events seen by NPC's would be more work. To ask or encourage PC's to be more engaged would be great, but short of some saying OOC. HIGH GUYS every topside crime actually generally takes a week or so's worth of work to arrange and organsie, pay and sort players out to do an attack, can you please you know actually engage. There isn't an easy solution.
[13:26:19 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think there have been a number of suggestions thus far on how to get around Judges being quick to respond.
[13:27:00 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Corpsec should, in a way, be scarier. Because they're not beholden to The Law. They can't even pretend to believe in Justice.
[13:27:07 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: It's true that I've tried crime topside and this max UE judge dude showed up in 20 seconds. Though that's just part of it, sometimes they are all asleep and don't show up at all. It's not always the same.
[13:27:09 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Don't have to pretend that is.
[13:27:51 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: I think scheduling and planning around judge positioning / availability is a big part of crime.
[13:28:07 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think there might be something to stationing judges on Green more, as opposed to Gold. I'll raise that with the staff at the staff meeting.
[13:28:22 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: That'd be great:)
[13:28:49 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: This probably wasn't quite your point villa but there's something gamey about waiting for 7am DST to do crime when the judges are asleep tho 
[13:28:56 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I like the concept of Gold being almost entirely CorpSec while Green is where the Judges are, keeping corporate citizens safe in their domestic situations while CorpSec keeps them safe at work.
[13:29:03 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: And honestly it's fine to expect that you will get caught red handed sometimes, have to give them some wins. 
[13:29:25 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Abient shrouds on Gold and Greed could be nice too. 
[13:29:28 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I think the Judges existing at all runs contrary to the theme of the game. However WJF having only authority on Green and nowhere else whatsoever would be a compromise.
[13:29:32 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Ambient* 
[13:29:42 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): To be clear, I don't think there will not be Judges on Gold, just that we could station more of the PC judges on Green or something. Making it take longer for them to respond in the event of a crime, not that they wouldn't be responding at all.
[13:30:01 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: However I think the players in the WJF will use the systems available to them to stop this stuff anyway, since they have the means to.
[13:30:08 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] villa: I think it would be unfair for the PCs to go from fighting terrorists and mixers to opening granny's jar of pickles
[13:30:10 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Speaking from experience, vehicles moving around Gold makes it seem very tiny, maybe Judge vehicles should be an off sector thing. They respond from the Hall of Justice, not parked strategically around. I think I've seen a Judge parked outside of the clone update place many many times.  I do not know how much of an impact that might have. 
[13:30:15 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): In my opinion: The Judges are an integral part of the theme of the game and always have been.
[13:30:54 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I disagree, needless to say. I think the negative impact of the Hall becoming the center of the Withmore universe was not a good thing.
[13:31:00 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: But I've said my piece!
[13:31:25 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Hivemind has joined the channel.
[13:31:31 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I mean they are baked into the game. Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing when we talk about the theme of the game.
[13:31:35 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Instead of getting rid of Judges altogether, what about lifting up CorpSec's role? Also it seems to me that (Correct me if I'm wrong) there is a  lack of corpsec PCs at the moment. What's making people not want to join CorpSec?
[13:32:01 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I don't think we're looking to change the role of corpsec at this point. Or expand their powers. They are the law on corporate territory.
[13:32:13 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Ok that's fair
[13:32:18 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): They don't have power outside that becausae the corporations are in competition with each other and don't trust each other.
[13:32:39 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Imagine corps warring over turf like gangers.
[13:32:42 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana chuckles.
[13:32:53 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): the WJF is the 'neutral' party that maintains order, as agreed upon by the mega-corps because otherwise they would be bombing the shit out of each other daily and wipe each other out which is bad for profits.
[13:33:11 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: That sounds pretty cool to me.
[13:33:19 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): yeah for a month
[13:33:27 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Is that so much worse than apartment idling?
[13:33:40 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): ?
[13:33:44 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Here's an interesting thought - do corpies know that they're able to disobey the Law? I guess both IC and OOCly, but more from an IC point of view. Do they know it's an option for them?
[13:34:12 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] batko: I have a few radical ideas on this sort of thing. I think two things: HoJ on Green, and I honestly think Syndicates should be more empowered and encouraged to antagonize corps. If you want cyberpunk shadow wars and shootouts on Gold, that's how you get it. Last time it was stamped out, but I think they are the only faction that thematically makes sense to be considerable foils and competitors to CorpSec. This also alleviates how stale Team Death Match in Red can get between the Syndicates.
[13:35:04 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Corpies complaining that they can't carry firearms if they're not licensed...nothing's stopping you from carrying a firearm if you hide it well enough, or bribe the right judge.
[13:35:10 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I mean that a complaint from CorpSec is not feeling their role matter or not having much to do, which leads to apartment idling. I think open warfare is preferrable to what we have now.
[13:35:19 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Risk aversion Svetlana. 
[13:35:25 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Yeah I guess
[13:35:37 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Syndicates are corps too. Let's not forget 
[13:35:56 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: And I agree with Batko that Corps and Syndicates should be the major game authorities and should check one another.
[13:35:58 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] batko: They are! And it's been echoed many times before that people want corps to be fighting eachother more.
[13:36:01 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Are the WJF meant to attend attacks on sovergen grounds? 
[13:36:17 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] batko: But the domestic corps on Gold and Green aren't going to be shooting eachother, may as well make the criminal corps do it.
[13:36:31 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): The WJF can respond to things, but have to leave if asked on corporate territory basically
[13:36:45 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I like the idea of a Judge just standing idly by as a murder takes place inside a corporate tower because they're not allowed to get involved.
[13:37:07 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): that would be the case if corpsec were doing the murdering basically
[13:37:11 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Could lead to some struggles with their morality if they're forced to not intervene. Or they intervene and their colleague charges them with Vigilantism
[13:37:12 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: WJF have a lot of soft OOC power because of their control over major sections of the game which I think imforms how much other factions will really push back against them.
[13:37:12 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: That is possible. The WJF has been asked not to intervene before.
[13:37:49 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Something even I have trouble remembering is that the WJF is actually beholden to the corps.
[13:37:54 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I don't need to be told by a Judge not to do something, when I know that player can put me through hell if I do do it.
[13:38:14 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: If Corpsec do not feel valued because they have nothing to do, and responses topside feel lack luster because it is involved less players, or involving less players that will scream and shout. Would the WJF being simply banned from inteviening in any crime on corporate soil help with that? 
[13:38:25 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Also to hail back to a prior comment. I do not think the problem is a lack of corpsec players. It's a lack of engagement the same way mixer players also need to engaged. We all need to buy in.
[13:38:37 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: That is a good point Coral.
[13:38:48 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: CorpSec has always played second fiddle to the WJF though.
[13:39:01 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Wonder if those mentor-vacation characters that were proposed in one of the BGBB threads could help push theme with corpsec
[13:39:07 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Cannot agree more, but trust me, trying to get people engaged is genuinely harrowing.
[13:39:08 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Wherever you are, gang, mix, corp WJF we all have the ability to engage others.
[13:39:53 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Somewhat centrally to my point, the WJF have abilities and support that no other faction does. There is no competing or pushing back against that.
[13:40:16 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Yes you cannot force someone to engage that is true. But you do it anyway and hope someone will take a hook because eventually someone will.
[13:40:23 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): It is untrue to say there is no competing or pushing back against that. And honestly, I think saying stuff like that puts the wrong idea in a lot of peoples heads.
[13:40:52 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Ppl have to buy into your character's cause. They're not going to risk their lives for a cause that they don't understand or that doesn't resonate with them
[13:40:53 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I can't stop people from having these opinions, but I can't pretend hearing stuff like that isn't frustrating.
[13:40:56 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: It may not look the way you want when someone takes a hook too. That's part of the surprise but we don't do what we do for those who don't engage, we do it to interact with one another.
[13:40:57 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: How am I supposed to resist the authority of a faction which controls most of what my character does and has access to?
[13:41:11 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Carefully?
[13:41:13 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: On another RP game I play if you do a crime and a warrant is issued for you, the warrant as an expiration date. If you avoid getting caught for that time the charges are dropped. Its done to simulate the police having way too much to do and need to push cold cases off the books to keep up with fresh crime. Maybe this could help people feel better about risk taking.
[13:41:18 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to 0x1mm]: Through s u f f e r i n g 
[13:41:23 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Why would I WANT to, is my point.
[13:41:31 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I didn't say it was easy, but saying it is NOT possible is putting the wrong idea out there.
[13:41:50 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: It's easier just to go along with what they want and perpetuate this safe suburban thing, because fighting it goes nowhere.
[13:41:52 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): You wanting to or not wanting to is your characters decision. But saying it isn't possible sends the wrong message, no?
[13:42:05 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: I think there are methods, but they might largely use one of the more unsupported archetypes to do so
[13:42:09 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Something being easier doesn't mean that doing the harder thing is impossible, is my point.
[13:42:21 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): this isn't an easy game
[13:42:31 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: ^^
[13:43:15 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I 100% agree that going against the WJF is a risk, and is not easy. It's not meant to be. They are essentially the antagonists to just about everyone in the game.
[13:43:29 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: The WJF has always been a staff darling, and sees unique support, and I'm saying it impacted conflict topside, and indeed conflict everywhere, in negative ways.
[13:43:58 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): The WJF are no more a staff darling than many other factions. It is unfair to say that.
[13:44:08 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): How much staff support does NLM TV get? How much code support?
[13:44:51 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: How much game authority does NLM TV have to exert influence over people doing crime?
[13:44:56 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Not wanting to be that person, but is this specific line leading to the primary topic? 
[13:44:56 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Could there be more activities for corporation players that require traveling to the badlands to do work they need to do for maybe automated systems and since vehicle weapon aren't illegal outside there, it would encourage attacking commuting players out there, and other types of combat and subversion?
[13:45:11 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: They could publicly expose someone on NLM TV or spreaed rumors about them
[13:45:16 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: They're the propaganda arm of Withmore, really
[13:45:22 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: I'd also like to return to what someone said earlier - that all the motivated CorpSec PCs went to the WJF. Surely people know that this is an untrue statement. I think a huge part of the issue is that I sense people not trying to actively make more social contacts. You need to 'buy in' to stepping outside your comfort zone and engaging more widely with the community. We have a pool of fantastic RPers. Reach out.
[13:45:24 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): If you don't think NLM TV can change the entire perception of the entire game... way better and WAY faster than any other faction, I dunno what to say.
[13:45:26 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: They could do a show trial
[13:45:33 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: It's silly to build this all powerful central law enforcement faction and then wonder why there isn't more crime.
[13:45:58 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: There is crime, I am not sure doing crime is the actual issue here. 
[13:46:08 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: At least it is not the original topic.
[13:46:11 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Frankly, whether you are a mixer or a corporate citizen. It's the PvP that makes this game special. I don't mean kills, I mean interaction. There are already a lot of PvE things corporate citizens and mixers can do.
[13:46:21 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think the issue is people have stacked the deck wrong.
[13:46:26 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Neon: There are a lot of factions that hold a ton of power. A Syndicate PC can easily create a lot of trouble for the corporations. The corporations can easily create a lot of trouble for a PC. The WJF also wields power.
[13:46:34 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: All the corporations including syndicates are at war. The WJF are in the middle. 
[13:46:36 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: There is also nothing to stop a corporate player from doing those things you suggested, JakeyBoy.
[13:46:49 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Perpetuating that conflict correctly is a challenge.
[13:46:55 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: I know a crime I owuld have done topside was foiled simply by the sheer number of security measures everywhere.
[13:46:56 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): ^
[13:46:58 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: My argument being that the WJF has mostly served to shut down conflicts rather than perpetuate them.
[13:47:00 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Adea: Exactly, Coral. I see people wanting eveyone else to 'fix' the issues with the game. The effort has to come from all of us, inside and outside combat.
[13:47:02 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): my ^ was for reefer.
[13:47:13 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: That is what they should APPEAR to be doing 0x1mm.
[13:47:15 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Also I'd like to point out that you do not need to be a syndicate player nor a max UE player to cause trouble for corporations.
[13:47:24 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: absolutely, Coral
[13:47:27 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] batko: The only factions that can consistently avoid the consequences of the all-powerful law enforcement are syndies and corps, so it makes the most sense that syndies should be antagging corps and bringing mixers along for the ride, extending that look-the-other-way to the mixers in their employ to get everyone involved
[13:47:33 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: But ideally be doing the exactly opposite.
[13:47:35 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: There was no opportunity. It was never there.
[13:48:09 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think everything has just become really disjointed.
[13:48:16 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Bubble, can you expand on that comment? I'm not sure if you are addressing someone else's point.
[13:49:10 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Reefer, I think as an additional to that, one of the main heels or foils to the WJF currently has little to no solid direction. 
[13:49:25 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: what do you mean?
[13:49:33 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: Commenting on experience in doing crimes. There's a number of security measures in place that outright deny the chance in some cases. i.e. eye scanners
[13:49:34 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: The WJF is largely reactionary by design.
[13:50:04 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: And its #1 direction at this time is fostering internal PCs to grow into internal and external faction members of note.
[13:50:28 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: I can think of ways that it could be circumvented, but in getting that circumvention prepared it foils the window of opportunity as well.
[13:51:01 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think a lot of dotted lines got cut when we lost players and those need to be rebuilt.
[13:51:24 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Human eyeballs should be identifiable by blood/genetic ID like how blood vials are, and that can be connected to eye scanners
[13:51:28 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Off topic tho, sorry
[13:51:42 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Ideally, I'd like to get all the syndicates loosely cooperating against megacorps, all the megacorps fighting amongst themselves, and everyone caught in the middle.
[13:51:44 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: I agree, but does feel off-topic
[13:51:58 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Maybe I"ll drop it in the BGBB later
[13:52:00 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Mentoring could go a long way with that. I believe there are willing, intelligent hard working players who are consistently around, but lack the experience and direction needed to put that work into a place that really gets where they want to be, and where the world can be. 
[13:52:20 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Neon: I think we've seen great players rise from the playerbase in the past few years and become almost unstoppable in terms of antagonism. And it's amazing when that happens. I don't think that the WJF was a stopping force in those plots, but a driving force. The last P in the PVP. That is my opinion. What has changed from now since then?
[13:52:35 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Reefer where does terrorist factions sit within that? Or are they sort of old hat and defunct now?
[13:52:35 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Ever since there was a Grand Inquisitor the Hall has become the finger in every pie faction. This is, I am sure, intended to be benevolent and promote good gameplay, but it comes off as meddling and paternalistic now.
[13:53:09 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Neon: We could say things are easier now than then to do crime. You don't have to xhelp in many locations that these players used to have to xhelp about.
[13:53:17 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] GhostInTheMachine has joined the channel.
[13:53:44 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: That is true Neon
[13:53:48 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Neon, the investment and reaction to those antagonistic interactions that drive people to do more to experience those highs. 
[13:54:00 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I agree the xhelp change was a great one.
[13:54:14 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana [to 0x1mm]: Part of me thinks that's just a result of Withmore being a totalitarian society with the HOJ having its hands in everything, but then again I suppose corporations and syndicates might chafe at that
[13:54:34 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Withmore isn't a totalitarian society.
[13:54:40 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Debatable
[13:55:50 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] The discussion of 'GM response to crime as relates to xhelping about crime (or lack there of)' has been extended for another hour.
[13:55:50 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): continuing
[13:55:54 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: To a prior comment on mentorship, I would suggest that if your PC is in need of a mentor, reach out to someone and keep reaching out until you find that person. Maybe the first mentor isn't the one, maybe the second isn't, but they are out there. Also, consider that the best mentor might be the person you are afraid of reaching out to, or don't want to reach out to, but maybe that is a twist in the evolution of the RP of whatever relationship you have. But if you never reach out and create the possibility, it will never be a possibility.
[13:55:54 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] batko: Honestly, terrorist orgs are interesting but I think they should probably play second fiddle to the primary focus of a cyberpunk shadow war between corporations. Or be in the middle of it all by being funded to do their shenanigans in a way that is helpful to whatever organization needs distractions or patsies.
[13:57:15 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Terrorist orgs should use the corps to take down the corps, and play off of - or even encourage - the antagonism between corps (and/or syndicates)
[13:57:17 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Yes, fundamentally I think cyberpunk is criminality and corporate shadow wars.
[13:57:18 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Coral there are some things you cannot just 'reach out to a mentor' about though. 
[13:57:20 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Yeah, I think an important detail is that no matter what side you're on - you are always fighting someone elses war.
[13:57:30 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: beautifully said reefer
[13:57:49 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I don't know if my idea got lost in the WJF discussion earlier but if there is an expectation for corporations to be hostile to each in more ways than words and thoughts then reasons for them to leave WJF jurisdiction would satisfy the corporations wanting to fight each other, and the players wanting to fight the corporations while they're doing that. 
[13:57:55 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Neon: Fopsy, it's not against the rules to xhelp to inform staff that you're planning to do this or that crime and we'll do our best to attempt to be there, schedule, etc. We're really thin on manpower right now and trying to help many things go forward, and this year has started well, but what I am describing is also an avenue to attempt to get staff to be there. I can't promise we'll be there for all, it depends a lot on the staff present at the time. But we want to support player plots.
[13:58:04 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Respectfully, I disagree, fopsy. Everything can be learned through experience and interaction.
[13:58:19 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: And I hate that syndicates and corporations are as diminished as these wars are seemingly being viewed by players in OOC terms as being Bad Things.
[13:58:43 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Fopsy you could gain trust with the mentor. Start small. Talk in coded language. Or be like 'How do you make bombs? Asking for a chum...' 
[13:58:44 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: JakeyBoy: That's the ideal for sure.
[13:59:00 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: The WJF will not intervene in inter-corporate conflict and lots of other minutia.
[13:59:14 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Just keep it off the STREETS.
[13:59:14 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Not my experience.
[13:59:21 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: and inside corporate buildings.
[13:59:27 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: So maybe more automated gameplay like exists right now but it requires you to leave the city, and spreads gossip to PCs so they can work to intercept and interact with the corporations violently outside of the city.
[13:59:52 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: I would also add that staff have scheduled things. Writing notes is super helpful for us as well.
[14:00:06 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana needs to catch up on notes..
[14:01:06 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think an unfortunate side effect of having one amazingly fantastic WJF PC paving the way for so long is that their hasn't been much opportunity for people to -see- the pedelum swing the other way beyond Staff NPC WJF and hopefully that will change over time.
[14:01:27 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: My experience is the Hall will interfere in everything, everywhere, and it will come with a lecture in the process.
[14:01:48 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Anyway. I don't mean to derail sorry.
[14:02:42 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): So far I have noted a few things.
[14:03:23 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): chatter for topside explosions, possible automated NPCvNPC crime for PC judges to respond to, sic chatter for topside explosions, PC WJF stationed on Green to increase response times
[14:04:01 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I feel like NPCvNPC crime wouldn't be very fun to respond to in most cases
[14:04:17 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Neon, I have always been very open and informative with the staff about things both IC (puppets) and OOC (notes, xhelp) I could be more so if that helps? 
[14:04:23 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): also one thing is 'rumors' everyone is aware you can, with the right stats/skills submit your own chatter right?
[14:04:34 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Omg I love submitting chatter
[14:04:52 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): and even without those skills, you can hire someone to do it, or you can just get on the SIC yourself and start saying shit or pay some people to do it
[14:05:33 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Be your own hype or hire your hype anonymously.
[14:06:21 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Coral, you are likely aware the elements I need mentoring in are not something that there is are readily available PC mentors that exist or are in positions to actually be approached if they do, of which I have not already approached. So while not impossible it feels like it. 
[14:06:39 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): My alt used to publish a newspaper in the Mix, that no one knew was him, like full on news + food reviews + other stuff, from like 5 different fake reporters perspectives all with a different voice, just so he could write propaganda about his crew.
[14:06:52 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): it was super time consuming, but it was also fun and definitely had the desired affect
[14:06:56 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: That's amazing :D 
[14:07:16 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Kinda unrelated but we need more Mix journalists and also more GLobe journalists
[14:07:17 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): there are a ton of NON NLM news sources these days, and you don't have to write your own paper to pay one of the people that writes one to talk you up
[14:07:17 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Oh.
[14:07:19 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Sorry I am also catching up to all of this late and unfortunately I must also leave soon. However, there's one thing I'd like to bring up for folx to think about in terms of impact vs. expectation. We all want to do cool game/world changing stuff that gets people talking that they remember for all time. However, you don't hit homers every single swing and it's the journey that counts more than the destination. Your RP with a few people over something is just as important as those 'big events'.
[14:07:24 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: We need gigantic read-only e-memory nodes.
[14:08:05 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: What's this about?
[14:08:08 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Data hording would help us capture all this knowledge.
[14:08:12 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: This is about crime.
[14:08:24 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): also I think the grid doesn't get considered much. I used to have a bunch of different grid accounts for my alt, and he post something, would argue with himself across accounts, etc. developed entire different personas, and had different opinons, just so he could get conversations going about stuff he was doing or trying to misdirect people on.
[14:08:56 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I wish people checked the grid more, it has so much potential for information sharing
[14:09:14 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Be the change you want to see! There are resources at your disposal ready for creative use.
[14:09:16 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I use the grid all the time, I just find many are opposed to its use. I am still unsure why.
[14:09:17 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Neon: I love data hoarding, Reefer, what do you mean about gigantic read-only e-memory nodes? I think at some point you put an idea about mcguffins and e-memory data.
[14:09:30 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: Love the Grid
[14:09:45 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: We need places for curated data to circulate.
[14:09:53 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: To encourage the creation of said data.
[14:10:05 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Beyond mix newspapers? I'm intrigued.
[14:10:05 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: And GM's paying PC's for that data would be dope.
[14:10:24 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: I would also encourage PCs to pay for data.
[14:10:25 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Neon: So e-notes that you can write, then 'lock' so they are read only?
[14:10:27 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): The forums on the grid are a great place to discuss IC events across the game. Bombing of a corporate tower? Start a thread. Post on the Feed. Get other people responding. Who was it? Throw some rumors out there. I heard it was the Red Ike! I heard it was the Yakuza. I heard it was the RLF!
[14:10:28 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: The amount of stuff I ah IC written...
[14:10:32 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Neon: E-memory modules*
[14:10:33 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): shit like that stirs the pot and gets people thinking.
[14:10:33 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Kalii: I originally thought the archives would be that.
[14:10:40 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I don't use the grid unless I absolutely need to because it involves leaving the game client.
[14:10:47 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Love that, yes
[14:10:49 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Exactly. It should be curated and stored at the archives.
[14:10:54 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: And then maybe a shady mixer one...
[14:11:14 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Neon: I'll bring it up at the staff meeting to discuss with the rest. Thanks for the idea.
[14:11:21 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Sorta like 'samizdat' in the USSR
[14:11:23 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I think forum posts are probably the least hackable place on the grid. Unless you're a grid admin you can't edit / delete posts. Great place to put things.
[14:11:39 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Stuff like that is being pushed through physical media slither, it is not like it is not happened. Do we know why the Grid is just not being used for this ?
[14:12:09 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: some people think not using the Grid is themely. I've heard PCs brag about being technologically illiterate 
[14:12:11 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): People not thinking about it I guess. Maybe this discussion will change that.
[14:12:44 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I hope so, I actualyl really like the grid personally. Just seen more exposure off the grid with spreading data. 
[14:12:48 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I don't quite get the archives / data creation hoarding thing. Could someone explain? Maybe I missed a few lines.
[14:13:08 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Amiga: I've also heard rationale that people think you can be traced too easily on the Grid so it's not a safe place to stir things up, physical media is less risky.
[14:13:36 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): The grid is definitely trackable back to your SIC
[14:13:40 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: The fact that your SIC id is attached to your grid account is a good motivator to hire immies
[14:13:45 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: to make burners
[14:13:45 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Was there no interest in pushing those automated corporate project things to include badlands activities that could be intercepted by non-corporate types to expose them to being attacked directly without WJF support? Just corpsec and other corporate people on an automated task for their work?
[14:13:46 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): if you're using an account you registered with your current sic.
[14:14:07 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Yeah, plenty of ways around it. Hire someone, get a sic rip, etc.
[14:14:29 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Buy burner accounts from other people, even.
[14:14:35 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Someone could literally make money off this ICly. Be the I WILL REGISTER YOU A GRID ACCOUNT dude
[14:15:00 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): businesses do that IRL now, they use their contact information to register your domain, or for a physical mailing address for a corporation
[14:15:36 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: JakeyBoy, there are a number of workarounds built into creating more interaction (not just topside) for automated corporate projects. We can discuss ideas further as a staff, but given the paths currently available aren't being taken advantage of, I'm not sure if opening it up to the Badlands would necessarily help. However, open to the idea and to discussing it further.
[14:15:47 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] deskoft: The corporate projects have a lot of exposition to going to non-corporate territory, although I don't want to dive too deep into the mechanics. I agree there could be room for more of those activities, maybe in other areas of the game world as you said.
[14:15:53 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Ah yes, all the corporations with addresses in the Cayman islands:)
[14:16:05 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I like JakeyBoys idea.
[14:16:26 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: The mcguffins need a lot of love though or at least interest.
[14:16:26 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I could definitely see us adding that
[14:16:38 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I want more reasons for people to be OUT AND ABOUT. and also more ways to leak that information.
[14:16:59 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): macguffins have a lot of potential
[14:17:12 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: I think you should increase the stolen mcguffin reward ludicrously.
[14:17:13 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I just see a lot of people saying the WJF stop them from doing things. So masybe put the corporations in a place that doesn't have WJF support for some menial tasks every so often and it would open doors. 
[14:17:30 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Without revealing too much mechanics, again, there are ways to get corporate projects, but PCs (mixers included) need to also buy in. The stolen mcguffin reward IS ludicrous. But as of yet I have seen ONE mixer turn one in.
[14:17:41 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I haven't been working on new code a lot, as I'm still trying to get our bug backlog down, and make it so we are seeing like... 2-3 bugs a week instead of 2-3 a day. But macguffins ahve def been on my list.
[14:17:41 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] deskoft: There's some plans and some ideas surrounding mcguffins staff-side. They're on my sight, at least! I need to discuss with the rest of staff. Would love to see ideas surrounding them in the Ideas forum.
[14:17:43 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: WJF support ends at the corp's door
[14:18:12 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] deskoft nods in Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)'s general direction.
[14:19:42 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): okay so ideas as of now
[14:20:18 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): chatter for topside explosions, possible automated NPCvNPC crime for PC judges to respond to, sic chatter for topside explosions, PC WJF stationed on Green to increase response times, make macguffins take people to more areas, like the badlands, make macguffins status leakable via chatter
[14:20:43 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): what am I missing?
[14:20:46 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] spookybiitch: I love the idea of the Macguffins. Working on figuring it out more but learning!
[14:21:00 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Bruhlicious: What'S mcguffins?
[14:21:01 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: There's already all this chatter about MacGuffins that bartenders in Red Sector spit out. But I have no idea where a mixer can go to even find a MacGuffin. That's more of a FOIC issue tho
[14:21:02 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): We've talked about a lot, and keeping up + taking notes + responding I know I've missed some things.
[14:21:14 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Bruhlicious: What'S mcguffins?
[14:21:16 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): corporate projects, macguffins are the OOC name for them
[14:21:17 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Plebe: I know nothing of these macguffins
[14:21:23 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: svetlana, I'd suggest asking around and doing research IC.
[14:21:36 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Svetlana Even if you know how to translate all that it doesn't actually give you much to go on to find stuff.
[14:21:46 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: I'll ask around, yup:)
[14:21:53 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Bruhlicious: We should add AV rapelling. It#d help the crime.
[14:22:05 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): lol
[14:22:13 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] BubbleKangaroo: MacGuffin locations and acquisition are 100% IC info
[14:22:19 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: You can. Sort of anyway.
[14:22:44 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): okay I added 'av rappeling' to the list for the lulz
[14:23:00 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: For some value of 'can' that involves broken ankles anyway.
[14:23:03 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I just want small avs to have weapons. :(
[14:23:21 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: The lack of dogfighters is kinda tragic.
[14:23:23 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Vehicle weapons exist.
[14:23:32 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I did a lot of work IC around them the first few months they came out, from both sides of the coin. I want to see them be something amazing. But short of working with or leaking info from a PC working on it, which I have yet to see, it is a one in how ever many of them have been turned in at topside chance ;) 
[14:23:39 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: Go out and find them and experiment.
[14:23:50 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Bruhlicious: Slither. I demand screenshots of Johnnys reaction if he sees it
[14:23:50 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: They exist in certain sizes which prohit them from being used on small AVs with only passenger gunner seats.
[14:23:50 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Resource Reefer :( 
[14:23:56 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Yup I'm definitely on the hunt for them IC 
[14:23:58 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: prohibit.
[14:24:12 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Eats Your Crayons Coral: How many mixers have actually asked a corporate citizen how the system works? Or offered pay for knowledge? Sometimes your immediate circle won't know the answer, which is why interaction is so important beyond normal circles.
[14:24:26 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: There was some question whether there was small gunner type weapons. I left a comment on the relevant bug saying I thought there might be but I'm actually a little unsure now.
[14:24:57 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I think that those two AVs were just configured with the wrong type of gunner seat.
[14:25:00 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Coral, I can speak with xhelp on this, but I worked with time and resource with this. I do have a really nice idea cooking up in my head right now though :) 
[14:25:02 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Seems like an oversight. The Red Baron of Withmore is missing...
[14:25:04 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): the problem with AV rappeling is when the vehicle is moving. It is technically possible right now for an AV to be allowed to attach a grapplign hook to it and descend from it, we'd just need a room in the AV that was open to air and acted like a rooftop. Some of the air ships probably already have that, but if the AV starts moving, the person on the hook won't.
[14:26:06 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: The hardpoints and weapons for them got added in at different times and it's possible they didn't end up 100% lining up.
[14:27:03 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): is there a bug about that? I don't recall seeing that specifically, unless it was just on a comment
[14:27:13 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): nm, got an xhelp about it.
[14:27:28 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: I commented somewhere there could either be small gunner weapons added (if there isn't any, which there might be), or the hardpoints on the small AVs could be made fixed. I know of like 95% of the weapons but I'm not totally sure.
[14:27:49 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I put it in my @bug about the descriptions being misleading too.
[14:27:51 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I just got some fun ideas from this :)
[14:28:05 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana smiles at fopsy.
[14:28:15 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Good.
[14:28:19 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: Sorry Jakey I left a super long comment on that @bug but I made it private by accident.
[14:28:37 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Their are some really good opportunity out there but finding the right people is a true challenge.
[14:29:11 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I xhelped to make sure i need to make another one, if i do i will!
[14:29:30 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: I think the current one has all the information in it so i want to make sure first
[14:30:05 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: As Slither mentions, as more people use it the bugs will become apparent, it's just been a slow adoption process. Demolition derby would be wiz.
[14:30:08 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): you're good, I found the bug you were talking about.
[14:31:01 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Okay, we're getting close to the end of the second hour. Any final comments before we close this out?
[14:31:22 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Bruhlicious: AM ON TEEVEEEE
[14:32:11 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana: Just thank you for holding this discussion, I really enjoyed it and it was great to air some of my thoughts and get responses! Thank you :)
[14:32:36 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] JakeyBoy: Yes thank you. I am happy to have participated. I was worried I did not have enough game experience to contribute much.
[14:33:02 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: I don't always want to be that whiney karen bitch. So, just sorry when I come across like that. I am passionate, I care deeply and I want to see things grow better and stronger. I am just you know.. not always great at getting stuff across.                                                                               
[14:33:17 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: You're trying to fill a very challenging niche. It's okay.
[14:33:30 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] ReeferMadness: Just be nice. :-)
[14:33:38 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] svetlana hugs fopsy warmly.
[14:33:48 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Wish I was less of a brat about it xD Thanks Reefer, Svetlana appreciate it. 
[14:33:49 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] 0x1mm: (let me arm the whole city with rocket launchers)
[14:34:07 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] fopsy: Genuinly some good stuff though, I have plans :) 
[14:40:28 01/24] [Guided-Discussion] Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Thanks all for participating!