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I think I may have accidentally killed the old July feedback thread, so this is a replacement. Sorry if I killed your post, feel free to repost it.
By Johnny at Jul 7, 2021 10:22 PM
People abused self-tattooing? Damnit.
By Veleth at Jul 9, 2021 4:42 PM
Used car buyer seems great! Can't wait to try it out ic. Might move the needle on the car economy in a cool way.
By floored at Jul 10, 2021 3:06 PM
RE: BADLANDS CHANGES
This seems like a very good and themely change. One suggestion I might make is to make it so the big bad scary critters you SHOULD be scared of encountering have the ability to knock people off bikes, and thus, properly incentivize people to invest in the 'superior' forms of wasteland travel.
Otherwise people will just get a trivially cheap bike and zip right past all that cool monster code.
Just my 2 chyen.
By TalonCzar at Jul 11, 2021 3:00 PM
This seems like a very good and themely change. One suggestion I might make is to make it so the big bad scary critters you SHOULD be scared of encountering have the ability to knock people off bikes, and thus, properly incentivize people to invest in the 'superior' forms of wasteland travel.Interesting things happen when you try to attack someone on bike already. :-)
By ReeferMadness at Jul 11, 2021 3:01 PM
Oh, I'm aware Reefer :) I just wasn't sure the NPC's would be coded to take advantage of some of these things or not, so wanted to put in a suggestion for it!
By TalonCzar at Jul 11, 2021 3:02 PM
The badlands are DANGEROUS! Yeesssss. Awesome!
By floored at Jul 11, 2021 3:15 PM
I think, given some of the critiques to the banishment ideas, that if someone is to be banished with a more dangerous badlands that there might need to be consideration as to their survival chances. Perhaps a Hall Restricted critter repellent that lasts a few days to give them time to get somewhere safe. Or pretty much anything that would prevent a being ejected, killed by a critter, being ejected, killed by a critter loop until perm.
By Rhea at Jul 11, 2021 8:16 PM
Pretty sure anyone getting banished should be able to tackle the dangers, given that they earned the banishment in the first place likely through multiple violent actions, no?
By Johnny at Jul 11, 2021 8:19 PM
Fighting Dune Dragon's unarmed and unarmored sounds pretty fun for characters who probably aren't deeply specced utterly into unarmed... :D
I know (of) a couple/few people who were banished well before they could fight giant scorpions off as well, even armed.
By Rhea at Jul 11, 2021 8:30 PM
God forbid banishment actually carry the risks associated with being a super hardcore criminal. Going forwards with these changes to the badlands, perhaps people will put more thought into banishment before deciding to go that route with their character, given that it'll carry an increased risk of perming from even NPC activity (which I think is a beneficial change, personally.)
By TalonCzar at Jul 12, 2021 9:56 AM
They might have to flee, sure. :)
By Johnny at Jul 12, 2021 10:54 AM
Forgetting skills.
Finally! Thank you! Buut. 30 is useless for a lot of us. There are IC reasons some of us have more than 30 in a skill (Some have never even used) and have changed the entire direction of a char that came in the dome verses six months later.
IE: Came in the dome with a job in mind, spec'd for said Job. Did job few weeks, got more familiar with the game and changed directions, thus never having a need or used for that skill -ever- again.
By Floki at Jul 25, 2021 3:01 PM
Couple typos in the @assign ue forget page:
forgetable -> forgettable
to high to forget -> too high to forget
Other than that, looks like it should prove to be an interesting mechanic that will help players test the water with various skills without worrying about debilitating their characters in the long term. Thanks!
By Quotient at Jul 25, 2021 3:02 PM
Thanks. Typos were flagged on OOC chat as well and I've fixed them. xslither
By Slither at Jul 25, 2021 3:02 PM
Forgetting skills.
Finally! Thank you! Buut. 30 is useless for a lot of us. There are IC reasons some of us have more than 30 in a skill (Some have never even used) and have changed the entire direction of a char that came in the dome verses six months later.
IE: Came in the dome with a job in mind, spec'd for said Job. Did job few weeks, got more familiar with the game and changed directions, thus never having a need or used for that skill -ever- again.
Added thought - We have a max UE. How about a MAx forgettable UE instead. I understand this number would be waaaay lower but it would be a lot more easier to fix things ICLY our PC's have going on.
By Floki at Jul 25, 2021 3:05 PM
So first off: this is an awesome and great change, and I also appreciate how it is responsive to things players have raised. It really shows that staff is paying attention.
Still, constructive criticism:
I agree that 30 points seems too low. I think the right number might be somewhere around where the skill costs start to be curved, personally. There are definitely skills on my sheet that I have never, ever used because I bought them in CG that I can't forget. Up until the curve, you're still kind of 'dabbling', and being able to forget that skill seems worthwhile.
By Pavane at Jul 25, 2021 3:11 PM
Got to agree with the guys above. It seems a little low, considering within the first month or so- maybe even more, you are still learning what you want to do with your character.
Still a great change though!
By Izzyneko at Jul 25, 2021 3:13 PM
Without getting specific on suggestions, I agree with Pavane on leaning more toward the "curve" end of the spectrum. It's fun to dabble, encourages dabbling, and it's hard TO dabble with only 30 UE.
Current system works for accidental expenditures and things put in during character creation, but doesn't really function for forgetting much beyond that. Post-curve, those skills would likely still exist to some degree in your character's memory, but.. 30 UE? It feels low.
By Espi at Jul 25, 2021 3:15 PM
There was some fierce debate on this among the staff. I hear you about it being low, but again, this is NOT a change to let you change your build. This is a QoL change for the folx that make -mistakes- in chargen, or by typoing the skill they want to put points into. It's for all you folx who HATE seeing that random skill at 'useless' on your stat sheet. Or for folx who came out of chargen with like 22 skills all raised to like 5.
We have RESPEC (help respec) if you have big skills you've never used. You get ONE of these ever.
It is possible we will tweak the cap or change the amount at some point but 30 was the amount that everyone could agree on, including those that didn't like this feature being added at all. I understand there is a desire to be able to change your builds, but per Johnny, that's what character death and creating a new character is for. We don't actively support people having characters 'forever' and being able to change their builds into whatever they please over time, as much as that might be cool, it's just not the direction we want to go. Hopefully that makes sense even if you aren't in agreement about it as a policy!
By Slither at Jul 25, 2021 3:17 PM
Also, if you want to dabble, get a skillsoft.
By Slither at Jul 25, 2021 3:18 PM
30UE is not practical. I can verify that putting a week into a skill is not even enough to be useful but more than enough to allow a refund. I would say 66-80 points is a balance where it will not be abused byt can erase mistakes.
By Varolokkur at Jul 25, 2021 3:19 PM
I'll point out that it is entirely possible to pop a skill to curb then realize you don't want to do that skillset within the first few weeks of spreading your wings.
By Floki at Jul 25, 2021 3:20 PM
It's not for dabblers, it's for the mistaken nuisance spends.
30 is at least high enough to get you out of trouble even if you assign the max to the wrong skill by mistake.
By beandip at Jul 25, 2021 3:23 PM
Personally, I think 30 is fine. Much higher and it becomes an avenue for abuse. If you've been around a while that curving point seems like a really small investment, but remember that the curve is when you start to become good at something. Allowing people to backpedal out of that could easily be prone to abuse.
By Quotient at Jul 25, 2021 3:24 PM
It does seem a bit low.
Mistakes made in Chargen often continue into the first few weeks of play as you realize what or who that character is. Chargen max + a week or two of padding I think would still fit the spirit of this being a solution to chargen mistakes.
That being said!
I think this is an awesome addition,
fantastic QOL stuff, and I appreciate the staff for putting in the thought and working on it.
By gssmr at Jul 25, 2021 3:25 PM
If it's thought to be the abuse then limit the number of times or number of skills you can use it on.
By Floki at Jul 25, 2021 3:25 PM
Abuse can be found out and handled - plus it takes weeks to forget any of them. Its not a quick process that lends itself to the quick and dirty uses we'd expect. I'd like it to be higher personally. Say, anything below 4 a bump or so would make me a happy camper.
By Damarung at Jul 25, 2021 3:34 PM
I am going to be objective and state that only a few skills are useful below an investment of 80ue. This is a fact. Character gen readily allows for several skills up to this point. I say up to 66 points/22 day investment as it keeps a 1 rank buffer from being abused and that is roughly the time it would take if something RP wise was interrupted that voids the need for a skill. For instance, planning to get a job then bring rejected.
By Varolokkur at Jul 25, 2021 3:44 PM
@Slither
We have RESPEC (help respec) if you have big skills you've never used. You get ONE of these ever.
You should also mention that RESPEC is entirely at the digression of staff and that people's RESPEC requests DO get denied for superfluous reasons. This is a transparency issue about something not many people get to use in the first place.
By TalonCzar at Jul 25, 2021 3:52 PM
I am going to be objective and state that only a few skills are useful below an investment of 80ue.Objectively wrong maybe. There are loads of skills that are very useful well below that threshold as the usage of those classes of skillsofts amply demonstrates.
If someone is undoing a month worth of UE spending, they didn't make a mistake, that's a serious skill commitment.
Based on the time it takes to respec out of skills with higher investments, and the limitations for even qualifying for a respect, I would say 30 UE bleed is a really excellent change and enough to let players fix up their @stats without rising to the level of a rebuild.
By 0x1mm at Jul 25, 2021 4:03 PM
If someone is undoing a month worth of UE spending, they didn't make a mistake, that's a serious skill commitment.
Not accurate.
By Floki at Jul 25, 2021 4:04 PM
A character later regretting their training is not the same thing as the player making a mechanical mistake spending UE.
A player mistake would be a character wanting to train into pistols (13) but the player choosing heavy weapons (14).
Whereas a character training into rigging because they want to make bombs is an IC mistake based on bad knowledge held by that character, the player has intentionally chosen the outcome. Players knowingly choose bad outcomes all the time, this is why IC learning is so important.
In my opinion this addition allows for some leeway on player mistakes while not giving characters infinite do-overs to min-max.
By 0x1mm at Jul 25, 2021 4:19 PM
It's easy enough to make it not infinite. It also takes a LONG time so abusing and having a do-over is not exactly a possible thing. Keep a limit -yes- but 30 is way too low. For ic reasons I can't explain it any more in depth than that, but there are other factors and circumstances that play into why it's needed for others.
By Floki at Jul 25, 2021 4:21 PM
Forgetting skills? Thank you! Thank you!
My character sheet is a mess, and this is amazing. I have like 6 skills that have never been used, and all but one of them are forgettable.
Poor
Reckless
Reckless
Reckless
Terrible
Useless
The UE refund is icing on the cake.
What if, in the 31 - 60 point range, it refunded only 75% of the spent UE? That way you can get unused chargen skills off your sheet. There notably isn't any way to make your stats decrease, so there's little ability to reinvent your character, even at the 60-point range.
By alittlelonger at Jul 26, 2021 6:56 AM
I have an honest question about the new forget skill thing. If it's meant to fix typoing a skill or char gen. Why will it take several weeks. That makes it seem like an IC thing when a typo or mistake in char gen is something that would more often need to be fixed in the short term
By Rillem at Jul 26, 2021 7:19 AM
Rillem, if you choose to forget a skill straight out of chargen, you won't get that UE back for nearly 3 years, at minimum.
The time limit, IMO, is to make forgetting a skill meaningful and not an impulse decision. Otherwise you could blast through Omega Gate and instantly forget all your skills. That would be especially punishing on a new player.
By alittlelonger at Jul 26, 2021 7:33 AM
Then why is it explained above to be for that? Kinda doesn't make any sense.
By Rillem at Jul 26, 2021 7:37 AM
"I hear you about it being low, but again, this is NOT a change to let you change your build. This is a QoL change for the folx that make -mistakes- in chargen, or by typoing the skill they want to put points into." -slither
By Rillem at Jul 26, 2021 7:39 AM
My point is, if it's for that. It should not take an extented period of time to unlearn if it it was a mistake. Forgetting a skill and it taking weeks feels like it's something that would be done ICly like getting rusty at something or suffering amniesa
By Rillem at Jul 26, 2021 7:41 AM
This argument has been done to death from the staff side, and the arguments made here were thought of and accounted for. After over a year of discussion about this (as this discussion has been going on longer than I've been staff.) this is the design we've gone with.
As always, we'll be watching and adjust if evidence proves it's required. Just my 2 chyen.
By MirageGM at Jul 26, 2021 7:49 AM
While I accept it because I respect the staff and their decisions it still doesn't make sense to me. Just kinda seems counter intuitive.
By Rillem at Jul 26, 2021 7:51 AM
The time limit, IMO, is to make forgetting a skill meaningful and not an impulse decision. Otherwise you could blast through Omega Gate and instantly forget all your skills. That would be especially punishing on a new player.TBH I don't exactly see how. If they don't want these skills, they aren't going to be running around using them while they're forgetting them.
By beandip at Jul 26, 2021 10:47 AM
I am so excited about the gossip system. Also, it's so cool to see it discussed on one day and implemented the next!
By Pavane at Jul 26, 2021 12:37 PM
Gossip! Exciting!
Time to beat up- I mean, ask NPCs nicely for sources.
By alittlelonger at Jul 26, 2021 12:54 PM
Is there a cooldown on how often you can feed NPC's with gossip?
By Sulfurado at Jul 26, 2021 12:56 PM
Thank you so so much for this unlearn function, being one of said people who had an 'oops' moment and twitches every time they see that Useless level skill on their sheet.
Read a lot of the points about expanding on this system to be more useful in forgetting higher levelled skills and I agree, but this is a pretty damn good starting point for an option we never had before! Maybe down the line it can go higher than 30 UE but imo this is a fantastic addition regardless.
By Nymphali at Jul 26, 2021 4:48 PM
Is the forget function set to tick universally for everyone at the same time or is it 24 hours from set? Been waiting for this stupid 0.5AE investment to fall off and it's still there, triggering my superficial OCD! :(
By Quotient at Jul 26, 2021 7:17 PM
The forget function works on a 24 hour cycle and you must have been logged in in the past 24 hours for it to work.
There is a built-in cooldown on rumors already. You can figure it out ICly without too much effort. If I see people submitting too much we'll tweak it.
By Slither at Jul 27, 2021 10:03 AM
Haven't seen it yet, but I'm super pumped about the wig and contact changes! Disguised shitbergs rejoice!
By floored at Jul 31, 2021 10:56 AM
Wigs and lenses respecting skin tone is such a relief. We're one step closer to not being able to easily tell who a disguised person is.
By alittlelonger at Aug 1, 2021 3:22 PM
Contact lenses respect skin tone, but they still show ansi color for their eyes, which is a dead OOC giveaway.
By Pavane at Aug 20, 2021 8:58 PM
