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IC cliquing overkill, and protection.
I'm curious if what I think is genuine.

So, as of late, I've begun to notice something. I'm highly, highly curious if others agree. Often there have been insults and accusations about OOC cliques. I don't think that's really happening much. I do however notice IC ones, and incredibly often at that. It's always the same. One incredibly powerful PC, and a bunch of newer ones under their protection, constantly. Or one PC of an equally high power and grasp hiring nearly anyone who you could've fought against.

Now that's far more *incredibly* hard to do. Because even if you win against said character, the other PC who is above them will find you too.

It feels like doing crimes in red and fucking with other PCs is near impossible now because everybody ever (even one week immigrants who just happened to stumble on an oldbie in a bar one time) is a pawn of someone higher.

Is this correct? Or am I delusional and it's always been this way and you're just to find ways around it?

Disagreements are super welcome, I want to know how this really truly is.

I can't say that I see that. You can hang around with that big massive angry guy, but if you think that he will go and fight your wars... You will likely be very surprised by what I've seen. I mean, if they wanted to protect random immies, that's what they would do all day long. And that's a hardly coherent thing to do. So you probably falling into IC propaganda more than actions.

Though on another matter, it's perfectly fine to have IC cliques and friends. The best asset you can have, way better than rifle or armor.

Marleen - You're wrong. Just...totally wrong.

Ephemaralis, I can see that. I mean it makes sense. I just don't know if it's a good thing. You can hardly really do crimes or harm other PCs in any minor way, really. It seems like the archetype of the street mugger as a career is dead. Because that big guy will fight wars for random reasons, more often than not it seems.

I see it more as a mesh.

Suppose you want to take down Ms. A.

Well, Ms. A is good friends of B and C, and is protected by D.

C has E and F as allies.

D has immy recruits G, H, I, J, and K.

H, B and J hate C though.

G and E aren't fans of A.

L is a solo willing to mess with any of them except H and F

etc.

Everyone has allies and enemies. If you want to take someone down, chart a path that cuts to them. Gain allies and worm your way in. Expect roadblocks and people doing your work for you.

Nobody is truly untouchable.

You mean like....being in a gang? Or organized crime? Or a topside Mean Girls club?

If you’re not collaborating on Skype or whatever then it is what it is.

I see street muggers, a lot. And thieves. And others. No idea where you get the concept that it's dead.

Will you get in trouble if you are not part of something bigger? Absolutely. But what is the solution for that? Join a gang. Or get friends. Or both.

Oh, just mugging and being a street criminal? Well that's just a matter of knowing who you can mess with. I've lost a lot to some really careful criminals, and also had plenty of laughs at the really bad criminals.
Yea and you learn icly quite quickly who to mess with and not, I sure had to learn it the hard way, and it came with surprisingly very few vats. But Seir seems unconvinced that they happen for some reason.
Powerful PCs are generally going to protect people that are assets to them. And some of them will even go out of their way to help that defenseless one week immy, though that doesn't mean they'll roflstomp whoever it was they felt overstepped. In fact, it is frowned upon for high level characters to go around killing people far beneath them, because it breaks the balance of the game.

There have been times NPCs have called for violence on people that hurt their employees, because realistically those people are what would make them money. If someone is going to trample all over them then that screws with their chyenflow.

Sometimes you really just have to handle things diplomatically, especially since there's a lot you don't know could be going on.

I'll add here that the extremely valid alternative is planning shit so you don't get caught screwing with character X, or w/e.
It seems far more discouraged than it should be. The chain of allies that was made is what I mean. It all comes down like a tree and trickles back. It has no benefit. And the rp just forces you out of being able to do such things unless you want to perm.

But I see. I suppose I'm wrong. Thanks for the opinions.

I could explain how cliques IC are absolutely essential in things like Syndicates and Gangs but then you would understand the secret to being really good at Syndicates and gangs through an OOC medium which is no fun. Just accept they exist and adapt to overcome.
And if it is discouraged it certainly doesn't seem to be. I've been stepped on like a bug because I attempted a robbery of one PC and then three far more powerful PCs came out of the bushes making immediate threats within the hour.

It just...seems overdone. But perhaps not. I'll figure things out eventually.

And Grizzly I don't mean syndicates and gangs.

I mean when one character comes out of the bushes to save every character ever. I believe the IC term is white knighting. I don't think I've ever really seen this *not* happen to me, actually.

On varying levels.

I definitely don't think I see any one character or even a few trying to halt any smaller crimes from happening or trying to protect every character and immy. But yeah, it's the Mix, it's dangerous, safety in numbers. Even somewhat older / stronger combat characters are going to get eaten alive on their own. Smart folks are always going to be looking to get involved in some kind of group, or at least with someone who is, to get some degree of protection.

But that protection is never perfect or 24/7.

It means getting involved with a group or at least a couple of people yourself, so that when you get fucked with or want to fuck with someone you also have people backing you up.

It's of course possible to try and play a more neutral and solo kind of character, but they're going to have to accept being EXTREMELY careful when fucking with anyone, or have chy ready to hire to hireable.

But do you know who you fucked with? Is it clear white knight age or is that what it looks like surface wise?

White knights can be lame as fuck, but sometimes there are investments being protected by the investor.

If you never get caught the powerful benefactor can't get to you. They can't be everywhere watching everything all the time.
Except when they can and for more or less are.

You'll be found. And whiteknight age is ABSOLUTELY what I'm referring to. Not a mob boss protecting a new business partner. This is in reference to random groups of barhopping immies that literally are like "Nah, let me go, or my people are gonna find you, and you'll regret it."

And hours later you get jumped by three whiteknights because they're kinda drinking buddies, and fucking with them, is, like, not cool, man.

But maybe this is less common than I think.

So the dude has friends. Go make some friends of your own, then jump some of his friends with yours when you're outnumbered. What're you worried about? Getting killed? Getting vatted? Vat goo builds character!
No. It doesn't. Maybe once your character is established and acceptably...set up? It does.

But as a new player it's fucking crippling. It seems like those who barhop and do nothing succeed and when you try to get the mix life type of RP you get fucked incredibly fast by random "Cool Guy: budget edition." Characters.

I'll just try harder.

I strongly recommend joining a gang if you want to be a mixer thug. It will help with lot of the issues you describe here and gives you grounds to learn who to do, who to not do, and also some backup. And vatting of muggers/dips are rare, I know from 1st hand experience. Even if you are bad at it. There are lesser ways to get a point across.
Marleen...please just stop. That's not the problem I have, nor what I brought up. It has little relation like quite a few of your posts.
Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it's not true Seir. I am new here. And new in the Dome. And I do the crimes you claim that are bordering impossible, and doing it with quite a lot of success. And yep, I ran into very strong people and repercussions from them along the way, though I would not go as far as to claim some wide-spread white-knighting. Though if someone is always reacting to crimes done by you, maybe that's why, and not because of your victims.

So maybe instead of being dismissive and just blaming everything on "white knights" (people having friends) take a second to ponder that maybe there is something in what was said. Or don't.

Except when you state a completely unrelated "recommendation" and then say you're new to the dome. I'm done with this. According to others I am wrong.

But honestly Marleen. Please do stop with this. I honestly would consider your opinions to have some validity -until- posts like those and some of the previous.

I appreciate where you're coming from, Seir, but I think you might be suffering from a limited perspective. There are all kinds of reasons people might be sticking up for each other, and part of the game is to figure out how to anticipate this and deal with it.

It's easy to assume that people are just horny or whatever but there's often a lot more going on than that and interfering with these tangled up business and personal relationships is often a big part of the fun.

I just wanna jump in here and say that this is a GOOD thing, in my eyes.

I think it makes zero sense that people see someone in immy clothes or someone they haven't seen around a lot and just immediately assume 'oh this guy is weak/connection-less, so i can fuck with him'. That is massively OOC and has zero place in the game. Immigrants can be anyone, with connections in and out of Withmore, with more experience than a lot of people in the Dome (even if it isn't reflected in their skills, which is why few people attempt characters like that).

This wouldn't bug me much but it is very widespread. Almost everyone I've seen does it. Yes, immies need to learn, and yes, a lot of immies are dumb as bricks, and many of them are fresh-faced bums who don't know the Mix from Blue. But this automatic OOC assumption and even desire for newbies to be completely defenseless is just predatory and not really doing anything towards creating good stories beyond just repeating the same old 'haha this immy needs taught a lesson' shtick that usually is just a mugging or beatdown, occasionally a trip to the vat.

Find out about the immy. RP with them and others. Then decide on a path befitting the characters involved. Are you really gonna stick up the former yakuza boss just because you know that he mechanically can't stop you? Not saying you can't or shouldn't, but don't just completely ignore their character because they're mechanically weak.

--

I can't really comment on IC cliques much, but I would be very surprised if there weren't many. In fact, it ties in with my previous rant. How do these defenceless immies stop being defenceless? By making friends. There's nothing wrong with this. Make friends of your own. Plan better. Solos aren't exactly growing on trees because of that very reason. It's not easy because the entire city runs on connections and data.

If people ganging up on you bothered you, you would've turned around right at the gates when you saw the first ganger.

Yes. I see loads of IC groups but I also see a lot of crossover and mixing among characters. Like a character having their own group C that is three PCs from another group B and two from another group A. It can get complicated and troublesome. But that's life. I see nothing wrong with PCs grouping up as long as it's all IC.

I have also seen PCs that take on way more risk for people they barely know that makes sense to me. Ranging from trying to fight off some attacker for a guy they had one drink with eight months ago to moving in with and marrying someone the met four days ago. It can drive me crazy as it just doesn't make sense to me but it doesn't have to really. I just need to deal with it.

And this immy protection thing actually drives me crazy to some extent. People complaining about how immies are being targeted or killed or robbed and deserve a break are, in my opinion, largely propagating this meta idea that the longer you are in Withmore, the stronger you are.

If I see midbies or oldbies totally crushing immies for no reason, sure, I might be disappointed in them and think it could be better. But if it's immie vs immie, I am a huge fan of it. Let them PvP like the rest of us. I also find that midbies and oldbies generally do have reasons for what they do to immies. It's just hard to see that sometimes. If they are acting on their own it's usually sending a message and taking some goodies and done. If they are killing an immy, there's a very real chance that they are doing so on another immy's behalf.

I would also suggest that 'living the mix life' is more than just mugging anyone you see. We've all seen or been the Immy that walks in the gates and tried to down the first person they see. But Sindome is about RP. So even as a mugger, you need to put in the RP to be good at your trade. That means getting to know who's who and who they know. If your character is constantly being stomped for mugging then I think it's possible that you aren't putting in enough RP before hand and are mugging a bit to incandescently.

And as other's have said, try and plan things out so you don't get caught. But I will say that you still need to respect your stats. If you chose to have your PC be an idiot so you can be stronger or faster or a better fighter, then have them be an idiot please. But even idiots can do well bu getting support. Find a smart guy who's not a great fighter and let them make your battle plans. Or join a group with so much muscle you can largely not worry about playing it smart. Lot's of options

The best move is to adapt to the game as it exists. Learn from what other successful people are doing. If other successful people have made friends and connections, make friends and connections. If lone misanthropes don't succeed, don't be a lone misanthrope.
@Seir

This literally happens at every level of the game, and if it's a deal breaker for you. You should probably leave, and not just now, but like now now.

For instance, there's currently a group of people with multiple max UE and multiple year characters taking fight to a group consisting mostly of >1 year characters.

You will get shit on, you will die. You will be exploited and double crossed. You will be unable to fight back, you will at times not be permitted to have a vision or view for your character beyond an apartment wall and living till tomorrow.

There will be days where you do not want to leave you apartment, or physically can't because you suspect that your door has been bombed while you were sleeping.

People will leave you the most fabulous gifts as bait at times, including severed body parts of people your character cares about.

You cannot stop this.

The line on the front of the game says it all.

You've never had the urge to kill yourself until now.

@Seir,

Your observation is 100% spot on.

As to any discussion beyond that, I think we start getting into IC / OOC crossover and discussions about strategy.

You are not imagining it. What you are observing is there. The WHY it is there is something to FOIC.

@RheaGhe: IMO we shouldn't tell people to leave the game or insinuate that they can't do anything to help themselves. It's a defeatist attitude and it's simply not true. While that may be your experience, your experience is not everyone else's experience.
Where did I say that at all Crooknose?

I simply stated that the "cliquing behaviors" happen at all levels of play and crossing all levels of play in the game.

And then explained some of the many many many ways you can be fucked over without help.

It's not a defeatest attitude, it's the reality of the game. Sure you can do a LOT solo, but the moment you add another character into your clave, for lack of a better word, you multiply the amount you can do immensely.

Correction there, with or without help.
@RheaGhe,

My perception of your pose aligns with what Crooknose said.

To paraphrase, the way your pose came off was basically, "Seir, what you saw happens. If you don't like it, don't play here."

Because it happens literally everwhere and if you don't like it... You are going to not like EVERY level of gameplay, because on EVERY level, you will do better with allies, be outplayed by those with allies, and so on.

So in essence, if that is a DEAL BREAKER, for them. They should leave, because they would be wasting time they could spend in other more solo friendly games.

We're constantly told that you can't just hold up in an apartment for three years and come out a god tier ninja... And that the true advantages come from connections and actually playing the game with other players...

And you want me to sugar coat that to someone who is frustrated by the fact that people are collaborating in an RP based game?

Your post sounded like it spawns from your own frustration. Kinda sounds like a vent blended with a suggestion. Painting no-win pictures for people is probably not constructive.
While it does spawn from my own frustrations, the points in what I've said here stand as pretty universal for everyone I've talked to in game.

There are moments where you win big, and there's moments that will crush you.

No one wins all the time, and no one loses all the time.

But there are ways to hedge your bets. There are ways to make yourself have an edge, and one of the biggest of them, is to clique up.

Congratulations, the secret of human success is and always has been our ability to come together and collaborate.

If you want to play the lone badass... In a realistic world like Sindome's, you can't, functionally do that, you'll be dog piled. What you can do is play the lone badass who collaborates with others and goes out on missions themselves. And especially early on, being alone doesn't work.

Just having another Immy to provide a shakey Alibi makes commiting crimes utterly more easy.

To sum it up, if collaboration being something a solo player cannot catch up too, makes you feel disdain for the system, is a deal breaker, it is my firm belief that you shouldn't play a game like this, where collaboration is a relative necessity to gain equivalent power to others around you in your "peer group".

@RheaGhe Where did I say that at all Crooknose?

Well, you propagated a defeatist attitude here...

You will be unable to fight back, you will at times not be permitted to have a vision or view for your character beyond an apartment wall and living till tomorrow.

You cannot stop this.

If you want to play the lone badass... In a realistic world like Sindome's, you can't, functionally do that, you'll be dog piled.

And you insinuated that a reasonable response was quitting here...

This literally happens at every level of the game, and if it's a deal breaker for you. You should probably leave, and not just now, but like now now.

Because it happens literally everwhere and if you don't like it... You are going to not like EVERY level of gameplay, because on EVERY level, you will do better with allies, be outplayed by those with allies, and so on.

So in essence, if that is a DEAL BREAKER, for them. They should leave, because they would be wasting time they could spend in other more solo friendly games.

To sum it up, if collaboration being something a solo player cannot catch up too, makes you feel disdain for the system, is a deal breaker, it is my firm belief that you shouldn't play a game like this

Now to answer your own question: And you want me to sugar coat that to someone who is frustrated by the fact that people are collaborating in an RP based game?

Yes, that's actually what I want <3

Seir's posting on here because they're upset that they can't get anything going and it feels like everyone is white knighting them when they do, which, while part of the game, is obviously tough for them, hence the post.

Plenty of what you said echoes what others including me have said, that cliques and groups are a natural part of the game and it's better to adapt than to be upset about it. But there's a way to engage with a bit of empathy for the other person's position, and there's a way to tell them they should play another game and that they have no agency to help themselves, which is completely untrue.

When you were upset that you got killed without some flavor RP to go with it, people told you, "Unfortunately, that's the way the game is a lot of the time. People could do better and maybe we should try to do better but it's not always possible to engage in that way."

They didn't tell you, "People will fuck you over cause they're dickheads and every level of the game is like that, and if you truly can't dig it then I firmly believe you should find another game."

See the difference? The former shows some understanding and sympathy for the position we're all in as players. When someone's obviously upset, trying to point them the right way without injecting your opinion on how they could best use their own gaming time seems preferable to me. You could have said everything you said without the added air of "the door's that way."

A lot of parroting happens on the forums. There's like a party line that gets picked up on and people are told, "this is the way things are." People should be free to explore their own playstyles and techniques, see what works, and adapt what doesn't until it does work. Giving each other a modicum of support helps that process.

Y'know what, I was a bit of a bitch, and I'll apologize for that. Perhaps a touch too blunt.
You don't have to apologize, I'm not trying to put you on blast. Just adding some nuance :)
Lone wolves can do just fine if they're smart or lucky and in my personal experience any situation that seems impossible to get out of is probably one where you're pushing on a pull door.

The game isn't stat sheet vs stat sheet, it's a really complex web of people interacting with each other that you mostly can't see and that is a big part of why it's so good.

I'd like to second Vera's statement. Lone wolves can work. It might put some limitations on your character you wouldn't have otherwise but I have seen them work - and there are some benefits as well. Some would even say that this is the whole idea of a Solo.

Even characters you see talking to many other characters can be lone wolves behind it all. They might maintain generally good to neutral relations with most but refuse to throw their eggs into any particular groups basket resulting in them giving or getting little to no support outside of what they can pay for with hard flash.

I've even played this style before myself. Twice. Both somewhat successfully. But it was a long road with bumps. It's not something I can imagine happening unless you really work things just right. But it is 100% possible to not belong to a clique and do cool stuff.

But you can't just barrel in and openly piss a bunch of people off and expect them not to call on allies just because you chose to be a lone wolf. You have to deal with the fact that chums and white knights WILL be a factor that you have to account for. Never expect others to play by your rules and do your best to never play by theirs!